Evolution; A challenge.

Forrest

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"pond scum to human evolution"? I presume you are talking about abiogenesis and biological evolution and examples of people lumping them together as "biological evolution". Sure, many do it and you are right, it does cause a lot of confusion.
As I understand the term abiogenesis it refers to non-living matter becoming living matter. I am actually talking about biological evolution and the theory that one primordial organism can evolve into every other organism being lumped together.

As long as we are being honest for a change can we also identify *who predominantly does this? Or is that so overwhelmingly obvious that we don't need to? But we'd also note that this isn't the only mistake Forrest is making.
Yes please let us. As I have already stated it is not just laymen doing it but scientists as well. And if scientists are doing it who can really blame anybody else for doing. Don't try and pretend that this is a predominantly creationist mistake. There are countless evolutionists that use the term evolution to refer to both biological evolution and the theory of evolution.

It is the rather stupid canard of micro vs micro evolution and perhaps you can get him to explain to us the mechanism which inhibits one from becoming the other. Or is it even better to explain that there is no such thing, really, as micro and macro? Which tactic would you favor here?
It is not just a stupid canard as you claim it to be. You assume multiple small changes can combine to form one massive change. All your "massive amounts of evidence" has never proven that it can indeed happen and that it did happen. Instead like so many evolutionists you rely on the fallacy that it is true unless we can disprove it. So will you take up the challenge and disprove God?

Wonderful when the shoe is on the other foot ain't it?

*If I recall correctly, and I do, you and I had words about this the very first time you posted here as fearisgood. It is gratifying to see you have moved on from this, it is further gratifying to see you have dropped ID as science and it is certainly gratifying that you are striving to correct a fellow believer's views on evolution.
I am not sure at who you are directing this. I am not this "fearisgood" person and if you are saying he is I am sure you must have an admission somewhere?
 

Forrest

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Do you know what falsifiability means?
Yes

It means that something can potential be disproven.

For example DNA analysis could have disproven common descent. Comparison between the Pan and homo genomes could have indicated completely separate isolated origins. It however didn't.
Could have is not an acceptable test for strict falsifiability. Your examples would not have disproven it in any case. If some animals didn't arrive through common descent it wouldn't disprove that others did. If markedly similar individuals didn't have similar DNA it would not call common descent into question but rather DNA as the information carrier and characteristic determinant. If "species" didn't diverge at one point they can be claimed to have diverged at another.

The theory could potentially be made to fit anything found accidentally. I know what the retort would be "but that's what science does." But if you can change something in order for it not to be false you have to ask yourself the question can it still be logically claimed falsifiable? Luckily Popper isn't the only authority and other criteria are used besides just falsifiability to determine if something is science.

Your point is moot. Evolution is observed fact. The Theory of Evolution is the explanation of that observation.

If you have an alternative explanation to explain the facts in existence please present it, a Nobel prize awaits.
Unfortunately for you it's not moot. It is still commonly accepted that YOU must prove something not ME disprove it. You are skirting around this fact and your derogatory remark doesn't phase me.

So nothing eh? I thought so.
Indeed nothing because you still haven't proven anything. Why is this fact so hard to grasp?

Except it isn't. Thank you for playing.
Except you can't show it isn't. You only believe it isn't.

You did not, and no matter how much you insist otherwise, it is still an outright lie. :)
Carry on believing what you want... you have just shown everyone you're not interested in learning anything.

Which was the intention of the thread; For people who deny the reality of evolution to show that they understand that which they reject.

Thus far, I have no reason to think that any of them do have the slightest notion.
I don't know hey. Plenty of us have showed we have an understanding of the unreality of the theory of evolution. On the contrary look at who the usual crowd is that actually derailed it the most with their derogatory remarks against creationists. Quite ironic that this is now your stance yet you haven't shown any understanding of the subject yourself and you are one of the prime examples that use evolution to refer to the theory of evolution.

The misunderstanding appears to be yours, and it's concerning the definition of theory. Even wikipedia got it wrong.. lol, must be terrible being a creationist and all those damn 'sciencey' references are always wrong.

Did you even read it? Something cannot be both a theory and a fact. Wikipedia is wrong but then it's wrong on so many things now isn't it? ;)

the·o·ry
noun \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
plural the·o·ries
Definition of THEORY
1
: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2
: abstract thought : speculation
3
: the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4
a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5
: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <the wave theory of light>
6
a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : conjecture c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
Exactly what I said. The misunderstanding is on your part, not mine. :)

Here you are referring to the 5th or 6th possible meanings of "theory" as listed above, when you should be using number 3. Have you perhaps heard of musical theory? Do you expect someone to still prove the chromatic scale is true?
No I am referring to the common meaning of the term evolution according to which it IS just a theory (as defined by #3) and NOT a fact. I don't know why this concept is so hard for so many people to grasp.

(#5 is actually correct as well. Dictionaries do state the same thing in multiple different ways for people that get confused but it does not seem to help for some people on here :D)

:wtf: What a diabolical twist of logic. If you saw mutations in a petri dish, it happened. No if or could, it happened. And if it happened in a petri dish, it can happen in nature. Unless you have philosophical issues about the reality of what your senses present to you?
The only thing that happened is the mutations in the petri dish. The real twist of logic is using it to "prove" that any mutation from pond scum to human can happen. It's also called a logical fallacy. I really don't know why these concepts are so hard to grasp.

er, that's what you should be hearing, not saying, since you're the follower of faith?
So are you. ;)
 

cyghost

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Yes please let us. As I have already stated it is not just laymen doing it but scientists as well.
So you have stated. Please back this up with some evidence now.
It is not just a stupid canard as you claim it to be. You assume multiple small changes can combine to form one massive change.
This is a logical conclusion unless you demonstrate what prohibits it. DNA, Fossils etc etc ammounts to massive loads of evidence which supports this logical conclusion. What the **** can stop millions of changes over millions and millions of years from being big changes????
All your "massive amounts of evidence" has never proven that it can indeed happen and that it did happen. Instead like so many evolutionists you rely on the fallacy that it is true unless we can disprove it. So will you take up the challenge and disprove God?
It has. I don't have to disprove God at all. I simply have to state that I don't accept your ****ed up claims about a celestial peeping tom.
Wonderful when the shoe is on the other foot ain't it?
Dishonest when you shift the burden of proof? Yes it is.
I am not sure at who you are directing this. I am not this "fearisgood" person and if you are saying he is I am sure you must have an admission somewhere?
The person whom I quoted would have been an indication to any sane, intelligent and rational human being. And I have whatever admissions I need that techne was fearisgood. Amongst a crap load of other nicks.
 

cyghost

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Jesus Christ people stop derailing the thread.
Apologies, I was editing that post while you wrote this one. You're right and sorry to coppa as well.

This bull**** is not warranted in the Natural Science sub-forum and I am out of this thread.
 

porchrat

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Apologies, I was editing that post while you wrote this one. You're right and sorry to coppa as well.

This bull**** is not warranted in the Natural Science sub-forum and I am out of this thread.
Agreed. No need to apologise to me though it isn't my thread :p

I just don't want to see this tripe in Natural Sciences. This mess is the reason why I don't like seeing these evolution threads aimed at creationists in here. This is a place for science, not creationist garbage.
 

Anony

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And still, the questions are unanswered. :)
Many people have given answers.
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TJ99

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Many people have given answers.

Provide links to at least 3 posts (since there are so many) where the questions have been answered, or kindly GTFO. There was one half-hearted attempt to answer some of the questions, and that's it. The rest have been inane semantic arguments over details that make no difference either way, asking other inane questions or bringing up inane religious nonsense. No-one has actually just gone through the questions and provided plain, simple answers for why they disagree, in point form, with them. Just as was suspected.
 

porchrat

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I have to say while I haven't been following this thread right the way through religiously (hor hor hor! chortle chortle chortle! :D) I didn't notice an awful lot of question-answering going on. A lot of arguing over the semantics of Natural Selection and a lot of squealing about how the power of Jeebus trumps evilutionists (you know... the standard PD fair) but not many people actually referring back to the OP and answering those questions.

I think h0ll0w made a brief attempt at one point to answer some of the questions but I don't think that qualifies as "many".
 

Anony

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I see people saying natural selection is actually not a mechanism or not prescriptive (techne and rwenzori and others). This answers one of the questions. In fact, it is an objection.

i don't know what you guys are smoking but it must be inhibiting your comprehension skills quite badly. Sorry.
 

porchrat

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I see people saying natural selection is actually not a mechanism or not prescriptive (techne and rwenzori and others). This answers one of the questions. In fact, it is an objection.

i don't know what you guys are smoking but it must be inhibiting your comprehension skills quite badly. Sorry.
That looked like an argument around the semantics in one question. It didn't seek to answer the actual question. I could be wrong. Frankly after all this time I've forgotten what the questions even were. I'll go check back.

There is no need to be insulting now.

EDIT: yeah looking back it was just an objection to the use of the word "mechanism" in the question and didn't in any way actually address what the question was asking.
 

Anony

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That looked like an argument around the semantics in one question. It didn't seek to answer the actual question. I could be wrong. Frankly after all this time I've forgotten what the questions even were. I'll go check back.
Remarkable really.

There is no need to be insulting now.
I agree, it applies to you and others telling them they are liars when actual fact it is not the case.

EDIT: yeah looking back it was just an objection to the use of the word "mechanism" in the question and didn't in any way actually address what the question was asking.
I understand that the opening poster said natural selection was a mechanism and someone saying it was not and many actually agreeing. The opening poster couldn't even respond in his own words. And quite frankly, if something is said in the opening post and it shown not to be the case and many agree, then that is as good an objection as any. That is how I see it. But others can now continue to insult me and call me a liar if they want. I apologize for the "smoking comment" though, that was uncalled for.
 

TJ99

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I see people saying natural selection is actually not a mechanism or not prescriptive (techne and rwenzori and others). This answers one of the questions. In fact, it is an objection.

i don't know what you guys are smoking but it must be inhibiting your comprehension skills quite badly. Sorry.

Those would be the ridiculous semantic arguments. It doesn't matter one iota whether it's a prescriptive or decriptive term. The fact is still: creatures that are best suited to their environment, stand the biggest chance of surviving longer and successfully reproducing. If someone disagrees with that, let them say why and provide some evidence. It's pretty well explained in the article linked to in the OP in fact. Not even Techne disputes that, he just likes to waffle on about definitions of words. Porchrat also told him so.
 

alloytoo

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Yes

Could have is not an acceptable test for strict falsifiability.

"Can potentially" or "could have" must the test for falsifiability. Just because something is not proven false does not invalidate it's falsifiability.

Your examples would not have disproven it in any case. If some animals didn't arrive through common descent it wouldn't disprove that others did.

Common descent underpins evolutionary theory. Successfully undermining it would have falsified evolutionary theory as we know it today.

If markedly similar individuals didn't have similar DNA it would not call common descent into question but rather DNA as the information carrier and characteristic determinant.

DNA has been convincingly proven to the "information carrier and characteristic determinant", it has in some instances revised our understanding of specific lineages.

If "species" didn't diverge at one point they can be claimed to have diverged at another.

The issue is not when divergences occurred, it's whether they occurred or not.

DNA analysis could have revealed no commonality between any species, it could have revealed a planet where every species (or every kind) was singularly unique.


The theory could potentially be made to fit anything found accidentally. I know what the retort would be "but that's what science does." But if you can change something in order for it not to be false you have to ask yourself the question can it still be logically claimed falsifiable?

Yes, if the potential remains for something to be disproven

Unfortunately for you it's not moot. It is still commonly accepted that YOU must prove something not ME disprove it.

Facts exist whether you believe them or not.

You may not believe in evolution, but you are different from your parents, as they were different from theirs, and as your children are (or will) be different from you.
Likewise you may not believe in gravity (it is after all only a theory), but I wouldn't jump out of an airplane without a parachute.

You are skirting around this fact

That's not a fact, that's merely your desire, facts are independent of your desires.

and your derogatory remark doesn't phase me.

If you have an alternative theory which explains all the facts of evolution then it could very well win you a Nobel prize. How do you find that notion derogatory?
 
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porchrat

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Remarkable really.
What that I would want to go check and that I admit I could be wrong and not perfect? Seems like the only rational way to behave really.


I agree, it applies to you and others telling them they are liars when actual fact it is not the case.
I never called you or anyone else a liar. Ironically you are now a liar though for claiming I did.


I apologize for the "smoking comment" though, that was uncalled for.
Much appreciated.
 

Anony

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Those would be the ridiculous semantic arguments. It doesn't matter one iota whether it's a prescriptive or decriptive term. The fact is still: creatures that are best suited to their environment, stand the biggest chance of surviving longer and successfully reproducing. If someone disagrees with that, let them say why and provide some evidence. It's pretty well explained in the article linked to in the OP in fact. Not even Techne disputes that, he just likes to waffle on about definitions of words. Porchrat also told him so.
I think the issue was what is the mechanism that causes creatures that are best suited to their environment to stand the biggest chance of surviving longer and successfully reproducing. It can't be natural selection since it is not a cause or mechanism. I remember people saying that it is just a description of different processes or things, I can't remember now though. But I also remember that someone said people have a problem with the "fitness" concept. This is related to my mind. To say nobody answered the question is really not the truth.
 

Anony

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I never called you or anyone else a liar. Ironically you are now a liar though for claiming I did.
I never called you a liar. I just said it applies to you and others that do call people liars. If you didn't call me a liar then it doesn't apply to you. Sorry for your misunderstanding. Apology accepted.
 
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