Evolution; A challenge.

Techne

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@Techne,
How is that anti-intellectualism? I'm just admitting that there are no inherent discrete separations between animals (a self-evident conclusion of evolution) and that the terms 'species' and 'speciation' can therefore not have any properly defined meaning.
It is not necessarily true that the term 'speciation' cannot have any properly defined meaning just because evolution is continuous.

But we use them anyway, without defining exactly what they mean, because they are convenient. We can't define exactly what speciation is, but any thinking person can see that it happens.
Correction. There is no universally accepted definition of "species" and hence speciation. However, I can have a perfectly intelligible notion that applies to all organisms that have ever lived. And I prefer the Scholastic approach. For me it is not a problem but I of course realise not everyone is going to adopt a Scholastic or Aristotelian or essentialist view. The problem is for those people that just can't wrap their heads around the concept and claim to understand that speciation does occur.

It is a bit like saying one metal can be changed into another without really having a clear definition of what a metal is.
 

Forrest

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45
Yes, Darwin made hundreds of suppositions, that was my point. He came to the only logical conclusion and since he lacked data, he interpolated where necessary.
My point is that how can you claim it's a logical conclusion when there's suppositions and interpolations? If you've ever read Darwin's memoirs you would've come across where he posits evolution as an alternative to, in his view, a vengeful God that would punish you for eternity for anything you've done wrong. You claim I could be influenced by my religion but can you honestly claim that your lack of belief or rather your belief that there isn't a God doesn't influence your belief in evolution at all?

When the evidence for both evolution and creation is there and nothing against either there is no logic involved in what you decide. Logic is an overrated term usually used when something is on shaky legs. If you wanted to prove that the earth is round you wouldn't need to employ it as the logic would be self evident. With evolution it is however not.

And I don't quite get what you're saying, but the onus isn't on me to prove the theory of evolution. That's impossible, but so far, it fits all the data and makes all the right predictions. So that's good enough for science. And sorry, I missed your question about large scale beneficial mutations, could you please repeat it?
Well, we already knew it's impossible to prove. Insofar as all the data fitting it and making the right predictions you are right. But then that can be said for creation as well and it fits some of the data even better. How many cases has there been of genes being copied or inserted into a part of the genome where they were beneficial or do they always have a negative or even a detrimental effect?

One last thing: have a look at the gif below. Could you tell me which parts are 'creationist adaptation' and which 'Darwinian evolution'.
No I can't. That is too simple way of looking at it. Life is not a piece a clay that can be moulded to fit any physical shape. Many characteristics make up how something functions as well as how it looks.

Take a look at this pic:
orchard.gif

Can you see where the creation and the evolution is and then where we see this?
 

Forrest

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I have a question, how long does it take for a banana to change into a human? And please no "but we didn't evolve from bananas." I just want a simple answer in terms of if a banana were to evolve into a human.
 

copacetic

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I have a question, how long does it take for a banana to change into a human? And please no "but we didn't evolve from bananas." I just want a simple answer in terms of if a banana were to evolve into a human.

A banana is pretty far along the evolutionary path already. The path it has gone down is enough so that it is, I would imagine, impossible for it to evolve into a human. Weird question though, as it would not happen. If the banana were to evolve into anything, there's no reason at all to presume it will end up anything human-like.
 

Ekstasis

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So what was the most basic form of life that evolved into the first humanlike ancestor?
 

Ekstasis

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A banana is pretty far along the evolutionary path already. The path it has gone down is enough so that it is, I would imagine, impossible for it to evolve into a human. Weird question though, as it would not happen. If the banana were to evolve into anything, there's no reason at all to presume it will end up anything human-like.
Does that mean the banana cannot evolve further?
 

copacetic

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The group of flowering plants that bananas come from, appear to have been around for 130 million years or so.

plant_evo.jpg


If plants split from animals 1.6 billion years ago, then there's appriximately 1.6 billion years that the banana would have to 'backtrack', in order to become human. I'd imagine this is enough prior change to preclude this from happening.
 

Ekstasis

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I have a question, how long does it take for a banana to change into a human? And please no "but we didn't evolve from bananas." I just want a simple answer in terms of if a banana were to evolve into a human.
This is similar to the crocoduck joke isn't it?
 

Ekstasis

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How do you define 'life'?
I like this definition: The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
 

Forrest

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This is similar to the crocoduck joke isn't it?
Just a sec and you will see what I'm getting to. ;)

A banana is pretty far along the evolutionary path already. The path it has gone down is enough so that it is, I would imagine, impossible for it to evolve into a human. Weird question though, as it would not happen. If the banana were to evolve into anything, there's no reason at all to presume it will end up anything human-like.
Now here is the problem. If evolution is postulated to allow any creature to evolve into any other creature there's no reason to assume that such a change can't happen. But indeed most sane people would never postulate that it can. Creationists and evolutionists alike realise there's some inherent resistance to evolving. The question is only where does that limit lie. One end of the spectrum you could get someone to claim that a banana to human is possible and on the other you can get someone to claim nothing changes.

Seeing as most would fall somewhere in the middle we can run with something along that line of thought. A dog won't become a cat very easily. If you are lucky you can breed a few cats and a few dogs closer to each other and end up with something interbreedable that you can breed towards a cat or a dog. But that is unlikely and the further you go up the taxonomic classification tree the more unlikely it becomes. Then you still have the problem that you had both a dog and a cat to start off with so oops no real explanation for either.

Interesting dilemma so they come up with a solution. Everything diverged from some common ancestor becoming more specialized down the line. Evolution indeed has a direction it seems. But where are all these ancestors? We see all the evolutionary "trees" but what's the one thing they all have in common? They don't have branches! Only the leaves we see around us have names. The fossil record shows few if any ancestral lines. Most of the ancestors exist only in the imagination. Because of that nobody can really agree on what they looked like exactly and if you don't know that you can't really name them.

But now you'll say we do have very old fossils. Problem is they're the wrong thing and not really old enough. There's a bunch of dinosaur fossils, the supposed ancestors of modern birds and crocodiles, but none of them show a clear path towards birds or crocs. Instead they become extinct. Cue an even earlier terapod supposedly an ancestor of crocs and birds as well. It too becomes extinct at one point. Anybody seeing the pattern of holes here getting larger?

Now cue the cambrian explosion. This shows where every animal had its origin from so of course the evolutionists would be throwing a party over this one. Why aren't they? Because it shows the opposite. It shows most of the base forms of even todays animals but nobody is really sure what evolved into what. It looks more like raw base material that was then taken apart to make all the more complex creatures, just like the mosaic platypus in fact. That's probably why most have chosen to ignore it just like there has been more time spent on explaining tiktaalik than the platypus. The nice evolutionary tree looks more like a mingled bush by now. Interestingly the further back birds are traced the more they run alongside marine animals and before land animals. Can anyone say *cough* biblical *cough* creation in stages or more specifically sea creatures and winged birds of day 5. /runs for the hills/

In case there's still any doubt here I'll eliminate it. Evolution can be true for today. This is necessary for creation to continue existing but there is a separation of kinds due to specialisation. To apply it to the past you are making the assumption that nothing was created. This is a matter of necessity for the theory of evolution but there is no scientific basis for it. Darwin thought the gaps in the fossil record would eventually be filled but they became gaping holes while more nearly identical fossils were discovered. Gould proposed punctuated equilibrium to fill the gaps. Any conjecture to fill them with except God I guess. Dawkins will even accept alien creators clearly showing his bias is against a supernatural agent rather than from the soundness of the theory.
 

SanchoP

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So the only thing we actually differ over is this:
- you think there were a lot of initial 'lifeforms' that have since diverged
- 'evolutionists' think there was one initial lifeform that has since diverged.

Am I right in saying that?

Because then the primary problem with your theory (as most people see it) is that it requires some kind of intelligence to create those initial species, which unfortunately isn't scientifically helpful. But anyways, we're both wasting our time, I'm done here. I think you should educate Ekstasis a little so he sounds like a little less of a loon though.
 

Ekstasis

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Just a sec and you will see what I'm getting to. ;)


Now here is the problem. If evolution is postulated to allow any creature to evolve into any other creature there's no reason to assume that such a change can't happen. But indeed most sane people would never postulate that it can. Creationists and evolutionists alike realise there's some inherent resistance to evolving. The question is only where does that limit lie. One end of the spectrum you could get someone to claim that a banana to human is possible and on the other you can get someone to claim nothing changes.

Seeing as most would fall somewhere in the middle we can run with something along that line of thought. A dog won't become a cat very easily. If you are lucky you can breed a few cats and a few dogs closer to each other and end up with something interbreedable that you can breed towards a cat or a dog. But that is unlikely and the further you go up the taxonomic classification tree the more unlikely it becomes. Then you still have the problem that you had both a dog and a cat to start off with so oops no real explanation for either.

Interesting dilemma so they come up with a solution. Everything diverged from some common ancestor becoming more specialized down the line. Evolution indeed has a direction it seems. But where are all these ancestors? We see all the evolutionary "trees" but what's the one thing they all have in common? They don't have branches! Only the leaves we see around us have names. The fossil record shows few if any ancestral lines. Most of the ancestors exist only in the imagination. Because of that nobody can really agree on what they looked like exactly and if you don't know that you can't really name them.

But now you'll say we do have very old fossils. Problem is they're the wrong thing and not really old enough. There's a bunch of dinosaur fossils, the supposed ancestors of modern birds and crocodiles, but none of them show a clear path towards birds or crocs. Instead they become extinct. Cue an even earlier terapod supposedly an ancestor of crocs and birds as well. It too becomes extinct at one point. Anybody seeing the pattern of holes here getting larger?

Now cue the cambrian explosion. This shows where every animal had its origin from so of course the evolutionists would be throwing a party over this one. Why aren't they? Because it shows the opposite. It shows most of the base forms of even todays animals but nobody is really sure what evolved into what. It looks more like raw base material that was then taken apart to make all the more complex creatures, just like the mosaic platypus in fact. That's probably why most have chosen to ignore it just like there has been more time spent on explaining tiktaalik than the platypus. The nice evolutionary tree looks more like a mingled bush by now. Interestingly the further back birds are traced the more they run alongside marine animals and before land animals. Can anyone say *cough* biblical *cough* creation in stages or more specifically sea creatures and winged birds of day 5. /runs for the hills/

In case there's still any doubt here I'll eliminate it. Evolution can be true for today. This is necessary for creation to continue existing but there is a separation of kinds due to specialisation. To apply it to the past you are making the assumption that nothing was created. This is a matter of necessity for the theory of evolution but there is no scientific basis for it. Darwin thought the gaps in the fossil record would eventually be filled but they became gaping holes while more nearly identical fossils were discovered. Gould proposed punctuated equilibrium to fill the gaps. Any conjecture to fill them with except God I guess. Dawkins will even accept alien creators clearly showing his bias is against a supernatural agent rather than from the soundness of the theory.
Interesting post. Didn't the evolutionists also use punctuated equilibrium as solution to the Cambrian explosion fiasco?
Btw ito gradualism in this theory of evolution, it would be interesting to see if statistically the odds of one organism evolving into a vastly different looking organism in X million years would be possible. Or is Statistics not regarded as science?
 

Anony

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Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
246
Evolution happens people. Get over it! Irrespective of whether you think the OP was useless or not.
 

TJ99

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i
So the only thing we actually differ over is this:
- you think there were a lot of initial 'lifeforms' that have since diverged
- 'evolutionists' think there was one initial lifeform that has since diverged.

Am I right in saying that?

Because then the primary problem with your theory (as most people see it) is that it requires some kind of intelligence to create those initial species, which unfortunately isn't scientifically helpful. But anyways, we're both wasting our time, I'm done here. I think you should educate Ekstasis a little so he sounds like a little less of a loon though.

Hey, don't be so anti-intellectual. Let's not focus on the facts or the OP at all, or even state our differences. Let's introduce pages upon pages upon pages of other bull**** and argue about the semantics of that until it comes out of our ears. It's TOTALLY relevant. Why are you so anti-intellectual? Stop being anti-intellectual :D
 

Forrest

Active Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
45
Well then let it be so. I will not respond to the OP any more. All the questions have been answered anyway I think. Note however when something gets posted you will find the same mob derailing it and then insisting that others don't "derail" threads as can be seen here and here. And then does this and this sound familiar? Then it also seems a common tactic of them to declare it "non-science" after derailing it. Meanwhile as can be seen the people trying to have a science discussion can do it perfectly well on other forums where these unsavory elements are not present. This does beg the question why is this sort of behaviour allowed on here?

I'll continue to believe in the created kinds leaving the fossil record abruptly in much the same form as they entered it and you can continue to support your "theory" with trolling, ad hominem attacks, insults and logical fallacies.

Techne, funnily you provided more evidence for evolution here than everyone who pretends to have some knowledge and logic "superior" to the rest of us and I'm not even sure you believe in the God-less molecule to man form of evolution. Will be sending you a link. :)
 
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