Evolution; A challenge.

porchrat

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What have you contributed to this thread so far ?
This thread isn't for me it is a request for those that don't accept evolution to answer some questions. What exactly is it I should be contributing?

I'm just interested in the answers to these questions and I don't want to see this thread buried in a mess of pointless arguments hence my appeals to you to respond to the OP or go away.


Oh and on "not liking" the word mechanism : It makes all the difference! Natural selection did not cause the predator to pick the white moth off the black tree, it simply did not detect the black moth on the black tree, so only the black moths survived. In the same breath the black moth did not consciously do something to turn black and thwart the predator!

Therefore, as far as I can see, Natural selection is nothing more than a word describing an effect.
It makes no difference the effect happens regardless of what words you use to describe it. Duh.

Ultimately it is environmental pressure determining whether organisms live or die. What words you stick around that means absolutely fsck all. If you have no problem with the concept then cool if you do have a problem with the concept please explain it. That is after all the purpose of the thread.

Thanks.
 

SanchoP

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I have a question about evolution.

The question is why would the first plants even need to evolve if they were perfectly suited to their surroundings? If you look at lichen, it survives almost everywhere. Why evolve from lichens to other plants when lichens are tougher and hardier and almost perfectly adapted to their surroundings? It doesn't make sense.

I appears to go against natural selection.

If plants evolved from lichens why are there still lichens? :) (this is meant to be a joke)

Organisms don't 'choose' to speciate; it just happens. For instance the conditions for one group change and over time they adapt to cope with those conditions (that may no longer be suitable for lichen-type organisms). That's just one of many ways it can happen, but I'm sure you get the idea.
 

alloytoo

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Here the difference is that a target was specified beforehand, the simulated monkeys didn't create a novel. That said, I can't really picture how you can claim that you have accurately "simulated" a million monkeys bashing a million keyboards.

And once again, a book is more than just the ink particles on the paper.

In part you've answered your own question, the evolutionary target isn't specified beforehand, but there is the 'editor' of natural selection, deleting parts that don't work, gradually building up a stack of parts that do work.
 

rwenzori

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The claim that natural selection is a mechanism is a bit dubious.

Jerry Coyne (an evolutionary biologist) says it is NOT a mechanism. The Improbability Pump.

Allen MacNeill (another evolutionary biologist) also argues that it is not a mechanism (here). He cites another evolutionary biologist, John A Endler, who also argues it is not a mechanism.

I can only agree with your arguments about the descriptive nature of the term "natural selection". Nevertheless I think this whole issue with the word "mechanism" is a bit far fetched. Does the word imply teleology of any sort? I think not: my COED gives one definition as "a process by which something takes place" which is pretty much this from your MacNeill chap -

As a result of these four processes, the heritable characteristics of some individuals become more common in populations over time.

If you don't like the word "mechanism" in this regard, what single word would you use?
 

rwenzori

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The question is why would the first plants even need to evolve if they were perfectly suited to their surroundings? If you look at lichen, it survives almost everywhere. Why evolve from lichens to other plants when lichens are tougher and hardier and almost perfectly adapted to their surroundings? It doesn't make sense.

Go read the article in the OP a few more times for your answer.
 

Bobbin

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Sorry OP but just to clear something up that gets to me a little.

Natural Selection is as much of a force or an "agent" as someone taking a leak against the wind. What follows just happens, there is no need for any intelligence, rather the lack of intelligence of the person trying to accomplish this feat without getting wet is obvious.

We still speak of it as a "force", but it is constantly shaped by happenstance and survival is what determines the direction and outcome (like the wind influencing the blow back of the urine), what other terms should we use? I can't imagine this concept being explained any simpler than that.

kthxbai
 

Unhappy438

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Sorry OP but just to clear something up that gets to me a little.

Natural Selection is as much of a force or an "agent" as someone taking a leak against the wind. What follows just happens, there is no need for any intelligence, rather the lack of intelligence of the person trying to accomplish this feat without getting wet is obvious.

We still speak of it as a "force", but it is constantly shaped by happenstance and survival is what determines the direction and outcome (like the wind influencing the blow back of the urine), what other terms should we use? I can't imagine this concept being explained any simpler than that.

kthxbai

Are you saying natural selection is random? If so you couldn't be more wrong.
 

alloytoo

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I asked a question ?

It seemed that way.
So what did the guy with 1 million monkeys prove ?

Say what ?

He proved that random generation of data can eventually create meaningful data IF subject to a filtering mechanism.

In the case of evolution random mutation is filtered by Natural selection. Everything that doesn't work (IE live long enough to procreate) dies.
 

alloytoo

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Are you saying natural selection is random? If so you couldn't be more wrong.

I think he's saying that natural selection is the name we give to the result of a collection of (often seemingly random) events which effect the ability of any given population to survive to procreate.
 

Bobbin

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Are you saying natural selection is random? If so you couldn't be more wrong.

No you read wrong or missed the most essential part of what I said.

"survival is what determines the direction and outcome"

That is really all there is to it. So it is not random in a sense but not necessarily shaped by anything intelligent either. It just flows like a stream if I can put it that way.

I have long ago placed the entire "purpose" of all things living and linked just about every mystery of behaviour and even every aspect of human psychology at least to my limited knowledge (perhaps even desire for an afterlife? :p) and have even gone further by asserting what fundamental element would create true artificial intelligence. I can probably even explain why you and I are posting on this forum today or perhaps why you might listen to the music you do given some serious thought and desire to try.

I can even take it further to describe why we do things that seem to go against survival by substituting our basic indicator of good survival (any form of happiness or positive reinforcement) for things that temporarily play on our survival instinct, as in why we are lazy, why we take drugs, why we might commit suicide (paradox? think about it) etc... And all this is based on one word, survival, like a foundation for our minds and for all things that live. And I have also on some previous occasion explained the more profound implication of the word survival as it builds on itself as a goal that is never 100% fulfilled or satisfied by any living thing both in terms of evolution and in terms of our day to day existence - I like to think this is why things keep moving, why life lives. To me it is a very important word, it doesn't just mean shelter and security or whatever I can only assume others might think.

So it would be difficult to argue with me on this ;) unless you can shatter my entire universe with an equally relevant piece of logic. :p

And I only assert this view based on lack of a viable alternative, it was a natural progression of thinking and "joining the dots" on my part. I would love to be proved wrong though, and perhaps this would be easy to do? My whole theory started on a very basic question, how do newborns who are unintelligent in one clear sense of the word "know" how to cry the moment they are born when they don't even know what crying means which to our developed minds indicates so much emotion and can be extremely complex? correct me if I am wrong but along with breathing it is usually one of their first actions, and it got me thinking about instinct and the purpose of instinct to indicate positive/negative reinforcement and from there it went on and on. And how vital any basic instinct is to bridge the gap towards conscious development and intelligence in every human being to ensure longer term survival and a continuous cycle. But another story for another thread perhaps.

When I came to this conclusion initially it gave me a great sense of coldness and emptiness and discomfort, so I was only drawn by its simplicity it isn't what I wished for in a sense of knowing why people work the way they do without the need for anything more profound. But nowadays I understand even more which has made it more profound again... if I needed to elaborate on my understanding...but I digress.
 
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Anony

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Okay, only thing I have to ask, is that anyone who comments is polite to the point of nausea, religion is left out of this, unless it is an integral part of the objection to one of the questions, and that we all stick to the subject, big time. I will be pissed if this thread gets closed
.

Cheers.

From the article:
What about God?
The theory of evolution does not address the issue of God, either positively or negatively. The theory of evolution, like any scientific theory, certainly does not need the intervention of a deity, and there are many evolutionists who choose not to speculate about the involvement of God, for a number of reasons-- chiefly among them that there is no evidence to support such a notion, and scientific theories by definition need to be constructed on purely mechanistic, physical processes. On the other hand, there are evolutionists who choose to view the theory as the method by which God placed life on this planet. As this is America, they have the right to believe such. The decision whether or not to incorporate God into evolution is a personal one, based on prior beliefs.

My question: You introduced the article in the science section where the article talks about God, why should we ignore this?
My objections. I think this thread should be moved to PD since it is hypocritical to introduce an article in the science section that talks about God and evolution and then ask people to not talk about religion. Rather discuss things in your own words copa.
 

Ancalagon

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From the article:


My question: You introduced the article in the science section where the article talks about God, why should we ignore this?
My objections. I think this thread should be moved to PD since it is hypocritical to introduce an article in the science section that talks about God and evolution and then ask people to not talk about religion. Rather discuss things in your own words copa.

Its funny that the very passage you quote specifies exactly why this does not belong in PD - it is not a religious debate, nor should it ever be one. It is a scientific debate. Nothing to do with God. If you want to believe that God set evolution in motion, that is absolutely fine. Evolution has no say on how life started, nor does it care.

So why do YOU think any discussion of evolution must involve a discussion of God?
 

Anony

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So why do YOU think any discussion of evolution must involve a discussion of God?
I don't, I thought that was rather plain to see :erm:. The OP introduced it into the science section.

Also, from the article:
Abiogenesis, while important to the study of evolution, is a separate subject, dealing with pre-cellular molecular biology, and may or may not involve evolutionary processes.
Which as you say, is BS. The article in the OP is not really fit for the science section.
 
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Bobbin

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The theory of evolution does not discredit or even have anything to do with the existence of a creator.

Unfortunately for those who vehemently believe and discuss their religion, the theory of evolution steps on the toes of many aspects of their religion.

Big difference in only believing in the existence of a creator and leaving it at that versus facing East every day and praying because some dude said you must or expressing absolute love for this creator you don't even know above your own spouse.

Organized religion, I don't like :/ Do not want!
 
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TJ99

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Guys, please, please, kindly STFU. This thread is important. It is scientific, it is here to give a brief explanation of what evolution is, in simple terms. It is not religious in any way whatsoever. It is not here for inane semantic discussions, or to get bloody pawed off on PD again because some people have an agenda. The only reason the word "God" is mentioned is to say that the theory has nothing to do with it. Take your strawmen somewhere else.

It is here for only one reason, to get people who deny basic facts of life to admit that they're ignorant, (or for someone to answer it and completely turn humanity's understanding of biology on its head and thus help them on their way to a Nobel prize). Please respect that, and discuss only the topic. Answer the questions, logically, or stay out of the thread. Please. For the good of MyBB. copacetic, myself and others would really like to see some answers here, and that's not going to happen if the thread gets locked.
 

Ancalagon

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I don't, I thought that was rather plain to see :erm:. The OP introduced it into the science section.

Also, from the article:

Which as you say, is BS. The article in the OP is not really fit for the science section.

I'm going to quote you again since you are having trouble understanding:

My objections. I think this thread should be moved to PD since it is hypocritical to introduce an article in the science section that talks about God and evolution and then ask people to not talk about religion.

I'm going to paraphrase you as saying this article mentions God therefore it belongs in PD.

And I'm going to quote myself again:

Its funny that the very passage you quote specifies exactly why this does not belong in PD

So, once again, the article only mentions God to point out how he has nothing to do with it. Why bring him up? Can you not debate evolution as a purely scientific matter?
 

copacetic

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From the article:


My question: You introduced the article in the science section where the article talks about God, why should we ignore this?
My objections. I think this thread should be moved to PD since it is hypocritical to introduce an article in the science section that talks about God and evolution and then ask people to not talk about religion. Rather discuss things in your own words copa.

This thread is not meant to be yet another discussion thread, where creationists waffle about what their religion tells them, there are plenty of those around already.

It is about reading two articles, and answering eight questions. In that context, I asked that religion is only brought into it if it is related explicitly to those answers, which is not unreasonable, given that that is the only purpose of the thread.

So, to be clear, I did not order anyone not to talk about religion, only asked that they do so in relation to the very clearly stated point of this thread.

So far just about everyone has done a fine job of bull**** nitpicking, and very little responding to the questions posed.

No surprise really.
 

Techne

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Objection 1: Natural selection is not a mechanism.
1) Jerry Coyne (an evolutionary biologist) says natural selection is NOT a mechanism. The Improbability Pump.
2) Allen MacNeill (another evolutionary biologist) also argues that it is not a mechanism (here).
3) John A Endler, another evolutionary biologist, who also says it is not a mechanism. Endler, J. Natural Selection in the Wild, Princeton University Press, 1986.

Objection 2: Natural selection is not a force or a cause
Evolutionary biologists Professor MacNeill does not think it is a force or a cause
Professor John A. Endler, another evolutionary biologist, does not think natural selection is a force or a cause.
Professor William B. Provine at the Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, Cornell University does not think natural selection is a force or a cause.
Philosopher of science (biology), Andre Ariew and Philosopher of Biology, Mohan Matthen, argue that natural selection is not a cause.

Could the OP please clarify (in his own words) his own understanding of the concept of natural selection?

It is unclear whether the OP thinks natural selection is a prescriptive or descriptive term and how his concept of "mechanism" is related to his view of natural selection. Please clear this up for us.

As is, it appears that the OP is using natural selection in a prescriptive manner and the concept of mechanism is used in the sense that natural selection is a "causally active" mechanism as if it is some cause or force and not just some descriptive term or descriptive mechanism like "erosion".
And, as pointed out, such a view is dubious at best.
 
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