Explain this

W

wifi_dude

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Hi all,

Just want some clearance here. I understand the fact that you can't setup a wifi network or mesh as its considered a LAN to icasa and therefore can not break out of your premises.

So then how are people like JAWUG and DAWUG getting away with running massive wifi networks without ownership of a VANS license?

I've been wanting to start a wifi mesh net in PMB & Surrounds, but am too worried about being shutdown. My purpose is the same as JAWUG and DAWUG. Ive got a few friends that all want to interconnect to each other, share files and play games.

so how are JAWUG and DAWUG getting away with operating city wide mesh nets and not being brought to their knees as other people are?
 
Wifi_dude. It should be pretty obvious. Read the jawug main page. I won't mind stating it here, since it's pretty much public knowledge.

Jawug Homepage said:
JAWUG is a not-for-profit effort to develop a wireless broadband community network in Johannesburg. Please Note: We do NOT sell Internet connectivity! (yet)
Click to expand...

I am not a lawyer, but the following is very relevant, in my view:

Legally, and in my interpretation of the laws, what any of the WUG's are currently doing is technically illegal. Any access point that accidentally crosses the road and to which someone connects, is technically illegal, yet a simple drive around Johannesburg with a scanner will show how utterly unenforceable any kind of WiFi regulation is.

Firstly, it is going to be very difficult for any kind of regulator, to try and bring the network down. They would have to litigate against each and every individual.

Secondly, we're not operating a profitable entity or charging anyone for access to the network. This makes it even more unlikely that anyone will bleat, and probably precludes us from having to obtain a VANs license. Besides, each individual would probably have to be issued a VANS license, as Jawug is not an official entity. The intent behind VANS licensing is to ensure that people do not get ripped off by fly-by-night operators such as the plethora of "Wireless ISP's" that currently exist.

I fully support the view that commercial operators MUST have a VANS license to protect the consumer. Jawug doesn't offer any service that can rip anyone off, yet another reason why VAN's licensing would be pointless.

Thirdly, we make very sure that we stay within the technical limits that the law requires in terms of transmission strength, etc. We do NOT amplify any of our sites.

Lastly, we engage with relevant parties, such as the Jhb Council. We will continue to lobby for the removal on the restrictions of ISM band equipment for community and personal use.

Your first post (since deleted) indicated that you wanted to run a network and charge people for internet access. Now suddenly you want to run a community network and play games with a few friends? One has to wonder where this sudden change of heart came from.

Be very careful. Don't even think about starting a "community" network when in fact you're running a commercial operation on it. I've had to deal with a number of people coming into Jawug's IRC channel pretending to want help in setting up a "community" network, and it turns out they're doing something commercial. The community bites back. Ask Airhive.
 
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Hi TheRoDent,

Yes indeed the first impression I had was to try and sell internet access. But after reading through everything as well as the whole concept of the VANS license, made me change my mind, as to ever run a WISP would be almost impossible for someone with a small budget. At the moment I have a 15dBi Omni on a Sena0 54mbps access point. I have also made sure that I keep the output power below 100mW as I don't want to cause problems.

My only concern with running a community network (well 2 concerns) is that you get people who will abuse it, or possible turn it against you and run their own service using your equipment?

how do you combat this? I mean using equipment like Mikrotik to possibly flaunt these attacks becomes VERY expensive. My other concern is, sure a regulator needs to go to every individual, or they could just confiscate your equipment at the highsite.

The reason I asked for the post to be deleted was due to it advertising a service. I didn't read the Terms & Conditions properly, and when I did, I asked rpm to delete it ASAP. I appologise for this.

My intensions have changed as running a service (such as internet) is demanding and expensive, not to mention illegal, and thats the last I want to have, is legalities hounding me. So my question is, what is the most effective way of starting a community wifi, broadcasting its availability to the public, inter-linking with other networks, and making sure you stay clean and legal (to a degree as you pointed out TheRoDent)

Oh yes, last question:
JAWUG is a not-for-profit effort to develop a wireless broadband community network in Johannesburg. Please Note: We do NOT sell Internet connectivity! (yet)
Click to expand...

When you say "We do NOT sell Internet connectivity! (yet)", what do you mean by "yet". Are you proposing that in the near future you will be providing internet access?
 
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Firstly, get rid of that omni. It's going to cause you more problems going ahead, than anything else. Abusers on a free, and open network is going to be a matter of fact, and it's very hard to deal with.

Jawug tightly controls access to it's highsites. Essentially we will only allow specifically authorised members to connect to the highsites. These are typically "transit" nodes and aggregate traffic for their smaller downstream users.

Thus, we can manage the integrity of the backbone. Handling abuse on a more downstream level then becomes something that a transit node has to deal with, thus we start sharing the responsibility of handling abuse.

We are also developing a plugin to OLSR, which will ensure that nobody can advertise a route unless they've registered on the jawug site, and been issued with a certificate.

At the moment though, handling this is pretty much a manual management issue. It's difficult to protect an "open" network, since the obvious intent is that it should be as accessible as possible. If someone starts offering a commercial service on YOUR equipment then it's not much of a commercial service is it? There are many ways that one can thwart such activities and make it useless to the abuser. It does however require constant monitoring and management, but without it, a community network would just disintegrate into anarchy in any case.

We are in fact using WRAP' (Mikrotik) boards for our highsites, simply because it's a nice way of getting many radios into a condensed form factor. I've developed a custom Linux distribution for the boards thus relieving us of the Mikrotik license. WRAP's actually work out cheaper than other devices if you need to have more than one radio at a site. They also perform quite well.

Due to the way the network is being implemented, it's very much a distributed system. The loss of a single highsite won't affect the smaller local nodes's communication amongst each other. A new highsite can be established to route around a blacked out one.

The best way to start a community network is to establish a place where people can communicate, and exchange their locations. Nodedb.com works pretty well as a basic starting point. Punt your WUG in this forum to garner interest. Get your friends to speak to their friends's friends and so on. Community networking is as much a social endeavour as it is a technical endeavour. Speaking to people at gaming LAN's always attracts a lot of response.

Finally. As the Jawug site says: We do NOT sell Internet connectivity! (yet).

What we're simply saying is that we don't preclude the possibility of Internet connectivity being available on the Jawug network in future. Regulations and laws may change, and IP access might become cheap enough that this may become a possibility somewhere along the line.

We're not bargaining on it though.
 
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TheRoDent:

Where do you guys find funding for this venture? Thats the last question on my list. I understand if you were selling a service it would cover your costs, but how does a community free network cover it's costs (hardware, rent and so on) ?

The other thing is, I'd really really like to get a community wug running in PMB & surrounds. Are there any specifics I should follow, any advice you can give me? Units, should I consider using Linksys with openWRT?

The last thing is, IP Addresses. Do you guys loose 2 ips per every person. 1 for their computer and one for their bridge to a highsight? Or have set aside a seperate IP allocation for wireless bridges and the likes?
 
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AFAIK, correct me if i'm wrong, funding is done from sale of Jawug Kits, as well as out of the members own pockets, who provide their own equipment
 
wifi_dude, I really recommend that you read up some more on the Jawug website, chat on the IRC channel etc. The discussion is getting very specific now.

rsachoc hit it on the button. We try to find sponsored highsites that won't cost us money. The equipment we purchase ourselves, or find sponsors for. Every Jawug kit that get's sold donates R50 to the Jawug hardware fund. It's slow going, but it gets there.

Obviously interested members buy their own equipment. The LinksysWRT54G's are the cheapest and most utility devices to use. Most of the network is currently using that, as client equipment.
 
Thanks TheRoDent, Guru and rsachoc for all the information and help... I will read and chat now to find out more details :)

Thanks again guys.
 
It is LEGAL as long as a telecoms service is NOT being provided. The minute you attach services onto it, like Internet onto it, it becomes illegal without a field spectrum or VANS licence.
 
i use wrt54gs, with alchemy software, i'm in pmb!
 
wifi_dude,

Follow TheRodent's advice and do some reading on the Jawug site. I found it an invaluable source of info when I first became interested in this...

I am now a Transit Node and member of the 'wild_west_mesh' which currently covers about 13 seperate nodes.

I could not have done any of it without assistance from the rest of the Jawug community, especially Daffy and TheRodent.

Also, there are a great group of guys in IRC and there is more than enough expertise to answer any questions you may have. ;)
 
Ryder_JHB,

Been looking around at all the different sites so far, including JAWUG, OpenWRT, OLSR as well as a little chatting here and there on IRC.

As someone famous says "If you haven't bricked at least one device, you haven't learnt anything..", and I guess thats just the way to learn. Set something up, play with it and break it a few times only to fix it right back up.

Will be doing the initial setups and installs as well as major planning this weekend. Looking forward to this venture!

bboy,
If you'd like, we can possibly attempt to create a link between each other. At least its a first step towards a wireless user group. I have about 5 other mates that are willing to jump on. I already have a high-site. I sold my omni and brought 2 16dBi sectors that I'm going to use.
 
i live practically on the alex field, so i can't see much, unless its nedbank plaza or the tower on alexandra road!
 
wifi_dude, sounds like you're on the right track now! Hope you get your local WUG going soon...!
 
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