F1 2011 thread

RB has been a dominant car all season thus far, it's only recently that they have been hauled in. You don't put a car on pole 12 out of 12 times without having a technical edge. You can't tell me Webber and Seb are just that much better then Alonso and Hamilton.

F1 is a team sport, but unlike most sports, equipment design plays a huge part. The driver is a big drawcard for the sport - if heroes were never created, the sport wouldn't have the same flavour. It's only those who are blinded by hero worship don't realise that the nuts and bolts of winning a race go beyond the faces you see on TV.
 
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killadoob said:
So he was not good in the benetton only the ferrari yet won two titles before joining ferrari? Are you just ignoring the years he never had the better car but still won a championship?
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I'm saying the Ferrari and Benetton were designed and managed by the same minds. Funny how everyone thinks Michael Schumacher is the only person responsible for his success.

Remember the villenueve battle when he never had the best car?
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Remember the Viellenueve battle to win races in a BAR that had all the fair weather supporters saying he's rubbish? Winning and not winning is often down to the car, luck, rest of the team. Certainly driver is a big part, but to sing Vettel's praises when he is winning in a car with a supreme edge and then say the car plays no part, it's all the wunderkind is silly.
 
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Why then was hamilton considered a wonderkid when he walked into formula1 with the best car?

Redbull has not been the best car in f1 this season, best one lap car without a doubt because vettel is a pole genius and very rarely has a bad lap when the pressure is on.

Come race day redbull have not been the best, mclaren could be right up there if it was not for silly quali errors, bad strategy calls and so on. Ferrari's biggest issue is they cannot get heat into their tyre's so in quali you can rule them out for pole but many times this season hamilton has looked on for pole but has made a slight error costing him precious time. Sadly for ferrari their car is wonderful on the faster tyre's but at some point they have to move onto the slower tyre and for some bizarre reason they become tractors.

Hamilton could have far better results if he had not looked like such a first year rookie all season, vettel looks like he has been in f1 for a decade, very rarely makes a mistake and yes rebull is a good car but take vettel out of the wins and pole and you would see a very different picture regarding what webber has achieved.

Anyways to say shummi and vettel are only good because of theirs car is a bit silly but each to their own :D. For me vettel is a superstar and we could see it before he landed his redbull drive. I hope ferrari can at some point get a car together but when you have drivers not interested in the technical side as well as the driving side it can be hard. It is interesting to note both shummi and vettel are interested in the technical side of things and both will have dominated f1 in 10 years from now :D. I hope not though, perhaps the hamster can go from rookie to pro sooner rather than later and maybe kubica can get a car good enough to win a championship along with fernando, who knows the way button is driving i would not count him out either.
 
killadoob said:
Why then was hamilton considered a wonderkid when he walked into formula1 with the best car?

Redbull has not been the best car in f1 this season, best one lap car without a doubt because vettel is a pole genius and very rarely has a bad lap when the pressure is on.

Come race day redbull have not been the best, mclaren could be right up there if it was not for silly quali errors, bad strategy calls and so on. Ferrari's biggest issue is they cannot get heat into their tyre's so in quali you can rule them out for pole but many times this season hamilton has looked on for pole but has made a slight error costing him precious time. Sadly for ferrari their car is wonderful on the faster tyre's but at some point they have to move onto the slower tyre and for some bizarre reason they become tractors.

Hamilton could have far better results if he had not looked like such a first year rookie all season, vettel looks like he has been in f1 for a decade, very rarely makes a mistake and yes rebull is a good car but take vettel out of the wins and pole and you would see a very different picture regarding what webber has achieved.

Anyways to say shummi and vettel are only good because of theirs car is a bit silly but each to their own :D. For me vettel is a superstar and we could see it before he landed his redbull drive. I hope ferrari can at some point get a car together but when you have drivers not interested in the technical side as well as the driving side it can be hard. It is interesting to note both shummi and vettel are interested in the technical side of things and both will have dominated f1 in 10 years from now :D. I hope not though, perhaps the hamster can go from rookie to pro sooner rather than later and maybe kubica can get a car good enough to win a championship along with fernando, who knows the way button is driving i would not count him out either.
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+1 Sums it perfectly. A WDC is not won in one race of move but over the entire season. How many mistakes has Vettel made compared to Hamilton and Webber? Jenson has had a few good races, those 2 DNF because of car troubles set him back, and the quali mistake by McLaren.
Vettel has just improved so much from last year, no more silly mistakes.
 
Vettel has proven he can win a race from the front and lose it from further back in the pack. 4 poles for Webber is proof that the car is strong. No more silly mistakes? He's gone off the track under pressure twice in three races afaik.
 
Gabonica said:
Vettel has proven he can win a race from the front and lose it from further back in the pack. 4 poles for Webber is proof that the car is strong. No more silly mistakes? He's gone off the track under pressure twice in three races afaik.
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Off track ------> into wall or someone else. He finished right? He is leading the championship by a country mile?

I think a driver is bound to have mistakes but not every race like that rookie hamster. He must go back tor running on a wheel cause turning one seems a bit much for him :p

He won many races from behind unless you think he has been on pole every gp since he joined f1 :D
 
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killadoob said:
Off track ------> into wall or someone else. He finished right? He is leading the championship by a country mile?

I think a driver is bound to have mistakes but not every race like that rookie hamster. He must go back tor running on a wheel cause turning one seems a bit much for him :p

He won many races from behind unless you think he has been on pole every gp since he joined f1 :D
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Vettel has won 16 races with 12 of those being from pole.
Of the rest, 3 were from the first row and one from the second.

He's only once in his career won a race from the second row of the grid and never won from anywhere down in the pack.

As for the car not being a factor, just take his team-mate into consideration.
Webber in a Red Bull:
2007 - 12th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 4th
2010 - 3rd
2011 - 2nd

Clearly Redbull have developed their car well over the years with 2009 being their breakthrough year. Adrian Newey is probably the biggest factor in that. By the end of the 90s Newey was responsible for 6 of the previous 10 constructors titles and 67 wins for Newey designed cars. Between Newey and Byrne, they have practically steamrolled the last 20+ or years of titles.

It's alot more to do with the car and designer than you think!

Lewis has won 16 times with 7 of those wins being from pole. And he's done them in a car not designed by either Newey or Byrne :)
 
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killadoob said:
Off track ------> into wall or someone else. He finished right? He is leading the championship by a country mile?

I think a driver is bound to have mistakes but not every race like that rookie hamster. He must go back tor running on a wheel cause turning one seems a bit much for him :p
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When you have overtaken you have the right of way and can choose you line through the corner. How many times has 'Cowboy-ashi' just clatterred into someone?
 
SaladCharger said:
Vettel has won 16 races with 12 of those being from pole.
Of the rest, 3 were from the first row and one from the second.

He's only once in his career won a race from the second row of the grid and never won from anywhere down in the pack.

As for the car not being a factor, just take his team-mate into consideration.
Webber in a Red Bull:
2007 - 12th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 4th
2010 - 3rd
2011 - 2nd

Clearly Redbull have developed their car well over the years with 2009 being their breakthrough year. Adrian Newey is probably the biggest factor in that. By the end of the 90s Newey was responsible for 6 of the previous 10 constructors titles and 67 wins for Newey designed cars. Between Newey and Byrne, they have practically steamrolled the last 20+ or years of titles.

It's alot more to do with the car and designer than you think!

Lewis has won 16 times with 7 of those wins being from pole. And he's done them in a car not designed by either Newey or Byrne :)
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Besides Hamilton's Kamakazi overtakes which do work out sometimes, how much of it is due to the car? With the exception of SPA last week Red Bull even with DRS struggled to get past other cars unless its a blue flag :P. Compare both Vettel/Webbers performance in overtaking to that of Hamilton/Button. Button seems just as good at overtaking. McLaren has the bigger top speed and big mechanical grip allowing for latter braking getting close the the guy in front to or just out brake him or pass him in the slow corners, and haul them in on the straights. In that respect their working to their cars strong point. Red-Bull is weak on the straights and slow corners, guess where most of the over taking takes place?
 
Yup i think hamilton just seems to pass so much because he has the car, i mean without the car how would he pass?

This is the general consensus about the car so i would say hamilton is only so good at over taking because he has always had a good over taking car. Nothing to do with his pedigree at all :D.

You may be right mermaid but i have seen webber slice thought the field more often than not, just as good as button and the hamster, sadly for us vette isl so good that he does not need to fight through the field the whole time. The other drivers have to be good at over taking because they cannot nail a one lap time without making a mistake to chuck it in the bin. Vettel is so good he can beat hamilton in a superior car in quali, often hamilton has the better package and still failed to deliver a pole lap :D, same with button if he could qualify better he could win way more races but he has serious issues putting a good lap together yet race day he is often the fastest guy on the track. When hamilton looks good in quali he often is crap in the race for some reason.
 
killadoob said:
Yup i think hamilton just seems to pass so much because he has the car, i mean without the car how would he pass?

This is the general consensus about the car so i would say hamilton is only so good at over taking because he has always had a good over taking car. Nothing to do with his pedigree at all :D.

You may be right mermaid but i have seen webber slice thought the field more often than not, just as good as button and the hamster, sadly for us vette isl so good that he does not need to fight through the field the whole time. The other drivers have to be good at over taking because they cannot nail a one lap time without making a mistake to chuck it in the bin. Vettel is so good he can beat hamilton in a superior car in quali, often hamilton has the better package and still failed to deliver a pole lap :D, same with button if he could qualify better he could win way more races but he has serious issues putting a good lap together yet race day he is often the fastest guy on the track. When hamilton looks good in quali he often is crap in the race for some reason.
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What does all of this have to do with the brilliance of Adrian Newey?
 
SaladCharger said:
What does all of this have to do with the brilliance of Adrian Newey?
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Well someone needs to drive his cars don't they?

So as good as he is without drivers that take your car and pomp the field you have nothing. As lucky as the drivers are that get to drive his cars he is equally as lucky to have had the drivers to use it to it's full potential.

Without pure genius behind the wheel you have an average car. Vettel is pure genius, he just slaps that thing on pole almost every race now.
 
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Sadly this thread seems to underate Hamilton.
I do agree, he never really had a rookie year until now. He drove like a seasoned veteran when he entered F1. Perhaps its catching up to him now and his mental state is causing him to behave like a rookie.
Having said that, I still believe he has what it takes to be a multiple champion. And I think we will still see it take place.

SaladCharger did sum up something that I've been telling my Schumi-arse-kissing buddy for years :
Adrian Newey and Rory Byrne have actually been the (behind the scenes) dominant forces in F1.
Without Rory Byrne Michael would not have been a 7 times World Champion. A multiple champ, yes, but not 7 times. Rory Byrne gave him a kick-ass car (and Rubens gave him the space to pass :p).
 
People have short memories!!! Just have to look at his record to appreciate his pedigree but people only remember the last race and little else...
 
The theme to underate hamilton i guess comes from the under rating two of the best german drivers of my time :D and perhaps two of the best drivers ever, well the one is in the making.

So no matter who was with shummi when he won titles you will give the credit to them :D. Insane stuff. I said when hamilton first started that getting the best drive in f1 would not help in the coming years, you need to learn how to lose and work your way up or else you will act like a little brat when you get a car that is not quite there in terms of performance, i thought last season would help hamilton because he had a really crap car but it seems this year is the year his head goes down and he gets all down because he cannot compete even though it is mostly his fault and not the car.

i reckon working your way up teaches you that you will not always have the best car, now starting at the top you don't learn that, when you get a couple seasons with a poor car that coping mechanism is not there because you never had to cope with under performing car. Look at button, he went for years and years driving rubbish but you never see him all upset and down for weeks on end because the car is not competing on the level he would like it. Hamilton can easily be a 5 time champion but not until he grasps he won't always have the best car in f1. although with vettel in the picture i think 5 time champion is a bit much, alonso has more chance of that.

hamilton is the only driver i can think of though that walked into f1 with a championship winning car. Rookie in the best car? Unheard of. He should have won two titles actually, got a bit unlucky in all honesty.
 
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killadoob said:
hamilton is the only driver i can think of though that walked into f1 with a championship winning car. Rookie in the best car? Unheard of. He should have won two titles actually, got a bit unlucky in all honesty.
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Yeah and the only ever F1 driver to tie with his teammate, the defending world champion, in his rookie year.
 
sandmanm34 said:
Yeah and the only ever F1 driver to tie with his teammate, the defending world champion, in his rookie year.
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As mentioned it makes sense considering the car he had, nothing to do with being good. We can put title down to an awesome i reckon as we have done with all 7 of michaels and as we have done with vettel :D. Nobody wins a title without the car. Any driver can dominate f1 in the best car.
 
killadoob said:
As mentioned it makes sense considering the car he had, nothing to do with being good. We can put title down to an awesome i reckon as we have done with all 7 of michaels and as we have done with vettel :D. Nobody wins a title without the car. Any driver can dominate f1 in the best car.
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No, I don't agree, not any driver can dominate in the best car, you do get different levels of driver skill, I think the correct way to word it is nobody can win a world title without a good car unless the rest are really bad. Right now we have so many talented drivers in F1 that it boils down to the best car. It's been like that for some time. I just think the designers dont get the recognition they deserve.

How many Drivers WC and Constructors WC were won between Adrian Newey and Rory Byrne over the past 20 years? Somethign worth researching.
 
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