F1 2024

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Sinbad said:
That's an interesting thought.... Deliberately chuck the team performance to get wind tunnel time for the 2026 car?
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I’d be interested to know, with the improvements in software & technology, how valuable wind tunnel time has become now compared to previous years.
 
does anyone know this "wind tunnel" time story? I can't believe in today's modern age they actually still use wind tunnels exclusively? surely modern supercomputers will do that 24/7, or is that also considered a wind tunnel by the FIA?
 
Wrath of Khan MD said:
does anyone know this "wind tunnel" time story? I can't believe in today's modern age they actually still use wind tunnels exclusively? surely modern supercomputers will do that 24/7, or is that also considered a wind tunnel by the FIA?
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Günther has got you

www.businessinsider.com

How wind-tunnel testing can make or break an F1 season

Wind-tunnel testing is "the most important development tool" for an F1 race car, a former team principal said.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com
 
Wrath of Khan MD said:
does anyone know this "wind tunnel" time story? I can't believe in today's modern age they actually still use wind tunnels exclusively? surely modern supercomputers will do that 24/7, or is that also considered a wind tunnel by the FIA?
Click to expand...
They do a ton of simulations, but that requires the software to be 100% accurate, which it isn't always. Mercedes are a great example. Remember the porpoising? The software never determined that would be an issue, in the sim the car ran great. Enter the real world and it's bouncing around like a twerker on meth.

Windtunnels can help show things that get missed in software, so it's still invaluable.
 
Merc had the sim issue AND they set up the wind tunnel incorrectly.
there are only so many tyres for the scale model of the wind tunnel car, and the tyres wear more if the moving surface under the car in the wind tunnel is worn out.. Merc decided to run their tests only on new surface instead of a more worn surface, to preserve the tyres more. this lead to no bouncing as there was less variance on the air being "stuck" to the surface of the moving road.

when they found this out it was too late to save the car but they made changes to the process and started using a partially worn moving road surface instead of a new or old one.

Drive 61 on youtube had a good video on that
 
UrBaN963 said:
They do a ton of simulations, but that requires the software to be 100% accurate, which it isn't always. Mercedes are a great example. Remember the porpoising? The software never determined that would be an issue, in the sim the car ran great. Enter the real world and it's bouncing around like a twerker on meth.

Windtunnels can help show things that get missed in software, so it's still invaluable.
Click to expand...
I think the argument has to do with the time/value gained required rather than whether it's valuable. If a team receives 50 more hours than the team on either side of it does translate to as much as an advantage as pre tech.
 
quovadis said:
I think the argument has to do with the time/value gained required rather than whether it's valuable. If a team receives 50 more hours than the team on either side of it does translate to as much as an advantage as pre tech.
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Please edit this into English :D
 
UrBaN963 said:
Please edit this into English :D
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Flying fingers on the phone are to blame.

I don't think it's whether wind tunnels are invaluable or not but rather if, with technical advancements, an extra 50 hrs more (than the team finishing in front of you) or 50 hrs less (than the team finishing behind you) makes a tangible difference.
 
quovadis said:
Flying fingers on the phone are to blame.

I don't think it's whether wind tunnels are invaluable or not but rather if, with technical advancements, an extra 50 hrs more (than the team finishing in front of you) or 50 hrs less (than the team finishing behind you) makes a tangible difference.
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Yea I'm curious about that too. I think it's relative too in terms of the equipment used. We can assume Merc, RB and McLaren are running the latest and greatest whereas Williams and Haas likely aren't. So what does 10 hours get Merc vs 10 hours for Williams. How many runs, how accurate, etc.
 
UrBaN963 said:
They do a ton of simulations, but that requires the software to be 100% accurate, which it isn't always. Mercedes are a great example. Remember the porpoising? The software never determined that would be an issue, in the sim the car ran great. Enter the real world and it's bouncing around like a twerker on meth.

Windtunnels can help show things that get missed in software, so it's still invaluable.
Click to expand...

Wind tunnels have their own limitations and would not have been able to identify porpoising either.

The wind tunnel belts (rolling surface) flex where real road surfaces do not and wind tunnels cannot replicate the speeds that would be encountered on track, being restricted to 180 km/h.

With much more underbody downforce, stiffer suspensions and stiffer tyres (so not as much cushioning effect) the problem [porpoising] has returned with a vengeance. None of the teams had seen this effect in simulation. In a wind tunnel, even the stiffest belt of the rolling road is more flexible than the track surface, and accurately modelling the dynamics of the springs and dampers in this situation is not really possible.
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www.formula1.com

What is ‘porpoising’ – and why is it causing the F1 teams a headache at 2022 pre-season running? | Formula 1®

The word ‘porpoising’ is back in fashion in F1, having been largely missing from the vocabulary for the last 40 years – when we last had ground effect cars…
www.formula1.com www.formula1.com

There are also other restrictions that have been introduced to reduce costs. Teams are only allowed to use one wind tunnel, and they can’t run the tunnel faster than 180 kph, which is a little over 110 miles an hour.

This may sound quick, but it limits their ability to completely simulate what happens on the track.
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f1chronicle.com

How Does An F1 Wind Tunnel Work? | F1 Explained

F1 wind tunnels optimize car aerodynamics by blowing air over scale models to measure drag and downforce. Learn how teams use this data to gain an edge...
f1chronicle.com f1chronicle.com

They both (simulation and wind tunnel) have their limitations and neither, even when combined, can fully replicate what the car will do once it hits the track in anger.

The above is also why one of the very first things teams have tended to do in testing is a straightline speed test. Get a feel for the stability of the car at high speed. Then it is time to actually test it around a track. I recall Eddie Irvine talking about the 2002-spec Jaguar R3 in winter testing. He said the very first time he nailed the car in a straightline he knew it was a dud, felt completely unstable. He didn't even need to take a corner in anger to feel it. Jaguar later came out and admitted that they had gotten their wind tunnel calculations horribly wrong and would often find themselves barely able to beat the Minardis in the first half of the season.
 
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quovadis said:
I’d be interested to know, with the improvements in software & technology, how valuable wind tunnel time has become now compared to previous years.
Click to expand...

"Real world testing" is still an entirely necessary part of the mix, but also I seem to remember that beyond just limiting wind tunnel time, teams are limited on CFD run time as well depending on where they finish in the championship.
 
ToxicBunny said:
"Real world testing" is still an entirely necessary part of the mix, but also I seem to remember that beyond just limiting wind tunnel time, teams are limited on CFD run time as well depending on where they finish in the championship.
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Didn't know this - so basically real or computed its limited.
 
Baxteen said:
Merc had the sim issue AND they set up the wind tunnel incorrectly.
there are only so many tyres for the scale model of the wind tunnel car, and the tyres wear more if the moving surface under the car in the wind tunnel is worn out.. Merc decided to run their tests only on new surface instead of a more worn surface, to preserve the tyres more. this lead to no bouncing as there was less variance on the air being "stuck" to the surface of the moving road.

when they found this out it was too late to save the car but they made changes to the process and started using a partially worn moving road surface instead of a new or old one.

Drive 61 on youtube had a good video on that
Click to expand...

that's because Hamilton was in charge during his massive forced BLM take a knee movement phase... they all followed his lead by allowing his Merc idea into the wind tunnel.... didn't end well

30+ Morocco Taxi Africa Mercedes Benz Stock Photos, Pictures & Royalty-Free Images - iStock
 
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