Farm Attacks

[Sl8er]

I am saying the Aholes are the ones tainting it, people should be distancing themselves from the white supremacists(although I am sure it is hard when anybody is heading your cries for help, you'll take any help that you can get). Almost all international attention of farm killings is synonymous with genocide and the only local hope people have is being ridiculed and pushed further away, so all i want to understand what can be done about it if this is the approach people are taking?

Afriforum themselves have said that many farm attacks are not racially motivated:

'More black farm workers are killed than white farm workers' - Johan Burger

Following a spate of farm murders in the Cape, the policing expert says there aren't enough stats available on farm killings.

www.702.co.za

I've answered and clarified my stance on this already.
If I knew how to bring this information to the public eye, I'd have suggested it by now.
Do you suggest we rather not speak up about it for fear of being called racists?

People are also grossly taking Ramphosa's words out of context in the interview too, in Trumps's tweet he SPECIFICALLY MENTIONS "large scale killings of farmers".

What would you call it if the murder rate is higher than a cop's in one of the most violent countries in the world?
That sounds pretty "large scale" to me. Was it the best choice of words? Maybe not, but it's not wrong.

In THE CONTEXT of that tweet, Ramphosa said there were no farm killings and land seizures(and of how many farm murders there have been ,how many have ended up in "black" hands?) targeting the farmers. How can he say there are no farm murders when there are literally murders happening everywhere, all the time, out of control?

trump: ...and the large scale killing of farmers
(forget about the expropriation stuff, that is not the conversation we're having here. This is the "farm attacks thread".)
cyril: There are no killings of farmers...of white farmers in South Africa

The misinformation cyril's referring to in the interview is about white farms being expropriated at that time -which it obviously wasn't. His excuse later on was conflating the misinformation about
expropriation with farm murders.

cyril's excuse goes:
"I was responding to president trump's tweet. When he said in his tweet, white farmers and white people are being killed, I said 'No. That is not true.' And I was specifically referring to that.
Yes, white farmers are being killed including black people on farms are being killed as well, is the reality that we are living with."
(And then he waffles on, trying to draw attention away from the issue at hand again.)

trump said:
"...and the large scale killing of farmers"

See how cyril added in "white" to farmers and "white people"?
Do you see how this game is played? cyril is denying stuff trump didn't say -oldest trick in the book.

See how the whole conversation ends? "It's bad for them, but it's bad for everyone too (and then the part that he didn't say, but I'm adding), so fck it."

You are welcome to read into it anyway you want, but I feel like you are hurting the cause over something petty that should be common sense. If you don't believe in an intentional genocide, then we can agree with Ramphosa that nobody is SPECIFICALLY targeting farmers. This does not mean the ANC is not to blame and are not innocent of the farm murders, we are just shifting the focus away from the conspiracy onto fixing the issue now.

Read the tweet again and listen to cyril's excuse. Pay special attention to the language he uses (what he's claiming trump said vs what trump actually said) and how he steers the
conversation away.

The problem is the "farm killing" stats don't just involve white farmers, they include anyone that works on the farm, sometimes third parties that "rent" on the farm and even small holdings, anything that can pump up the numbers to make it look horrific by those with an agenda. As I said, all murder is bad, but comparing the deaths of farmers as a profession to the number of women or children murdered in a year is a fraction of those. We might as well be protesting against ALL killings, and come up with solutions to all the problems than specifically narrowing in on farmers.

What is the murder ratio per 100,000?

Before I'm accused of using only numbers and or being insensitive again: 1 murder of anyone is 1 murder too much.
Doing something about farm attacks is a much simpler problem to (attempt to) solve than township murders.

 

[rietrot]

That's the same picture from years ago from unknown origin, I wish Afriforum or other security can catch come other guys with jammers and then do a press release about it. Or at least details surrounding this picture be released (was on this or that farm, taken by the CCTV, on this or that date, there was a successful or unsuccessful attack launched.

This is part of the problem. People that are spreading this nonsense makes it harder to convince most old people that they can actually defend themselves with some basic security that we all have and a neighborhood watch.

 

[Sl8er]

This thread is taking up way too much of my time.

 

[STS]

I've answered and clarified my stance on this already.
If I knew how to bring this information to the public eye, I'd have suggested it by now.
Do you suggest we rather not speak up about it for fear of being called racists?




What would you call it if the murder rate is higher than a cop's in one of the most violent countries in the world?
That sounds pretty "large scale" to me. Was it the best choice of words? Maybe not, but it's not wrong.



trump: ...and the large scale killing of farmers
(forget about the expropriation stuff, that is not the conversation we're having here. This is the "farm attacks thread".)
cyril: There are no killings of farmers...of white farmers in South Africa

The misinformation cyril's referring to in the interview is about white farms being expropriated at that time -which it obviously wasn't. His excuse later on was conflating the misinformation about
expropriation and farm murders.

cyril's excuse goes:
"I was responding to president trump's tweet. When he said in his tweet, white farmers and white people are being killed, I said 'No. That is not true.' And I was specifically referring to that.
Yes, white farmers are being killed including black people on farms are being killed as well, is the reality that we are living with."
(And then he waffles on, trying to draw attention away from the issue at hand again.)

trump said:
"...and the large scale killing of farmers"

See how cyril added in "white" to farmers and "white people"?
Do you see how this game is played? cyril is denying stuff trump didn't say -oldest trick in the book.

See how the whole conversation ends? "It's bad for them, but it's bad for everyone too (and then the part that he didn't say, but I'm adding), so fck it."



Read the tweet again and listen to cyril's excuse. Pay special attention to the language he uses (what he's claiming trump said vs what trump actually said) and how he steers the
conversation away.



What is the murder ratio per 100,000?

Before I'm accused of using only numbers and or being insensitive again: 1 murder of anyone is 1 murder too much.
Doing something about farm attacks is a much simpler problem to (attempt to) solve than township murders.

As Rietrot has suggested, even starting a Patreon page for donations to help get security for farmers is an idea, but nobody is going to donate to s movement that is associated with racism. I was looking up a link this morning and stumbled on a facebook page with thousands of followers pumping out conspiracy theories - it even delved into attacking the BLM movement and all that does is alienate people.

For a crisis and people thay need help, we should steer as far away from politics and racial identity as possible. I am already donating money monthly to feed a family for example, I wouldn't mind donating a bit more for private security(part of a larger sum) to protect areas without good policing, but I wouldn't do it so long as it prioritises one group only and has racist overtones

 

[rietrot]

As Rietrot has suggested, even starting a Patreon page for donations to help get security for farmers is an idea, but nobody is going to donate to s movement that is associated with racism. I was looking up a link this morning and stumbled on a facebook page with thousands of followers pumping out conspiracy theories - it even delved into attacking the BLM movement and all that does is alienate people.

For a crisis and people thay need help, we should steer as far away from politics and racial identity as possible. I am already donating money monthly to feed a family for example, I wouldn't mind donating a bit more for private security(part of a larger sum) to protect areas without good policing, but I wouldn't do it so long as it prioritises one group only and has racist overtones

Afriforum is not associated with racisms.

It requires a local solution.
What afriforum can do is provide legal and procedural advice to get the ball rolling.

How to set up security companies and deel with all the red tape.
Education on what home security options is available.

It's not like the farmers need more money. Throwing money at the problem won't help and will probably just lure more undesirable people in.

 

[Datura]

People are being attacked and killed on farms in South Africa. That is a fact. Why? We can only speculate for the most part. Regardless of the reasons, the attacks will increase because there is more than a 90% chance that the attackers will not be prosecuted.

Last year prosecution rates for serious offences were at 2% (I don't have stats at hand for farm attacks but will look for them again).

Nothing is being done about it (DA have deployed some unit but I doubt it will make a dent). For me it is terrifying to imagine. The Shakur family that was attacked earlier this month was just crazy. Dragged the pregnant mother, Zaahida Shakur, into the bathroom in front of her husband and children and slit her fscking throat. Nothing stolen. What the fsck.

It is a problem that needs to be addressed and instead people are too afraid that if they help they will be labeled "racists". Insanity.

I wouldn't live on a Farm in South Africa. Actually, I won't live in South Africa again. Out of control.

I personally believe that the majority of these attacks are guerrilla attacks.

Anyway, my two cents.

Have a wonderful day further.

Ciao.

 

[rietrot]

Things are only going to get worse. It's probably time for people to stop with the social media pity party about genocide and begging the government for help and actually go out and do something themselves. Stop being victims.

 

[Datura]

Things are only going to get worse. It's probably time for people to stop with the social media pity party about genocide and begging the government for help and actually go out and do something themselves. Stop being victims.

Sorry, I haven't read this entire thread so am not sure if any ideas for action have been discussed. What do you think can be done to help?

How many farms are there in South Africa? ~40 000? To protect that many farms will take 160 army battalions or the equivalent thereof.

 

[R13...]

If farmers want the commandos they can just start their own local security company. Many do this already. We have high unemployment and it is easy to find cheap security guards that can even patrol an area.

We already have private security like this in the cities everywhere.

It's probably a lot harder to achieve the economies of scale needed to make this work for some if not most farmers. They live far apart needing to cover vast distances. The commando system probably worked because there were upwards of 50 000 of them from some numbers I saw the other day. You probably don't need that level of coverage to discourage attackers.

A lot of these attacks are planned with insider info in many cases so they know the vulnerable and when to hit them.

 

[RonSwanson]

And what hymn-sheet is that?

If literal Nazis are picking up your movement, there is a problem with it. Same with communists picking up BLM.

You admit that disbanding the commandos was a deliberate move by the ANC to remove protection from farms.

 

[RonSwanson]

I literally googled his explanation and he said word for word what I suggested he meant

Now here is the thing, we don't HAVE to agree on what he meant, we don't even have to agree on whether he is honest, right, wrong, anything. He said what he said and it is done.

HOW are we going to fix it though? How is playing this clip a million times going to fix the situation? How is thinking he is a twat going to stop farm murders?

You have to reach the point where you either WANT to fix something, or you're resigned to accept your fate and nothing can be done, but don't kick the only opportunity you have of fixing the situation, and then whine that there is no way to fix it.

No foreign country has stepped in. No political party has gained traction. NO amount of retweets or petitions is going to stop these killers. What do we do?

Do we care about our own pride at the end of the day, or the future of the people in this country?

It is easy to see what he really meant. Talk is cheap, look at the actions and the consequences of those actions -- the pillaging, torture and death of people working on farms.

 

[IT_Steven]

trump said:
"...and the large scale killing of farmers"

See how cyril added in "white" to farmers and "white people"?

Also picked up on this.

 

[thestaggy]

If farmers want the commandos they can just start their own local security company. Many do this already. We have high unemployment and it is easy to find cheap security guards that can even patrol an area.

We already have private security like this in the cities everywhere.

Without the support of government, how do you think this will play out when farmers start rounding up; arresting and possibly wounding and killing would-be attackers regularly? What sort of political spin do you think will be put on this?

Easy to tell the farmers to sort it out themselves, another story when you consider the present climate surrounding land and farms.

Government has to take the lead on this by acknowledging its a problem and they also need to stop painting farmers and land owners as the enemy.

 

[rietrot]

Without the support of government, how do you think this will play out when farmers start rounding up; arresting and possibly wounding and killing would-be attackers regularly? What sort of political spin do you think will be put on this?

Easy to tell the farmers to sort it out themselves, another story when you consider the present climate surrounding land and farms.

Government has to take the lead on this by acknowledging its a problem and they also need to stop painting farmers and land owners as the enemy.

It will work exactly like private security already do. You arrest someone and wait 2 hours for the police to pitch up and come and take that person away only to release him.

It's not ideal, but it is better than doing nothing and dying. Or just moaning about how useless the government is.

This isn't anything new. It's already happening.

 

[supersunbird]

Without the support of government, how do you think this will play out when farmers start rounding up; arresting and possibly wounding and killing would-be attackers regularly? What sort of political spin do you think will be put on this?

Easy to tell the farmers to sort it out themselves, another story when you consider the present climate surrounding land and farms.

Government has to take the lead on this by acknowledging its a problem and they also need to stop painting farmers and land owners as the enemy.

Even if they do that, there will be no action, no capacitating the police or anything, nothing, not while the ANC runs SA.

 

[thestaggy]

It will work exactly like private security already do. You arrest someone and wait 2 hours for the police to pitch up and come and take that person away only to release him.

It's not ideal, but it is better than doing nothing and dying. Or just moaning about how useless the government is.

This isn't anything new. It's already happening.

You are aware that private security get involved in shootings and violent situations?

You are ignoring the very political and very sensitive backdrop here. Takes one or two situations to get out of hand - and they will when violence is involved - and you have a problem. I don't need to point out which sort of organisations would be all over stuff like this. If there are whites in the private security, the mere sight of armed white guys patrolling land (even if it is their own) will be politicised. Look at what the EFF done with the private security on Clifton Beach. Too many burly white dudes in tactical gear and it was a huge race fiasco.

Government has to be involved, but they won't for the very same reason farmers can't go alone; potential for explosive political fallout.

 

[dualmeister]

 

[rietrot]

You are aware that private security get involved in shootings and violent situations?

You are ignoring the very political and very sensitive backdrop here. Takes one or two situations to get out of hand - and they will when violence is involved - and you have a problem. I don't need to point out which sort of organisations would be all over stuff like this. If there are whites in the private security, the mere sight of armed white guys patrolling land (even if it is their own) will be politicised. Look at what the EFF done with the private security on Clifton Beach. Too many burly white dudes in tactical gear and it was a huge race fiasco.

Government has to be involved, but they won't for the very same reason farmers can't go alone; potential for explosive political fallout.

I have no problem with private security shooting a criminal in self defense.

It is perfectly legal and no matter how much political noise will come from it it is better than dead farmers.

It's already a problem, saying farmers should not defend themselves and just die to avoid a politically sensitive situation is just stupid.

 

[Datura]

You are aware that private security get involved in shootings and violent situations?

You are ignoring the very political and very sensitive backdrop here. Takes one or two situations to get out of hand - and they will when violence is involved - and you have a problem. I don't need to point out which sort of organisations would be all over stuff like this. If there are whites in the private security, the mere sight of armed white guys patrolling land (even if it is their own) will be politicised. Look at what the EFF done with the private security on Clifton Beach. Too many burly white dudes in tactical gear and it was a huge race fiasco.

Government has to be involved, but they won't for the very same reason farmers can't go alone; potential for explosive political fallout.

The only point of yours that I agree with is quoted in bold font.

The rest of your post is scape-goat reasoning for not getting involved.

If you care that people are being murdered for no good reason and want to make a difference, those reasons are cowardice.

Fsck political sensitivity. People are getting murdered! People. Human beings. I hate most of them but, Jesus... surely we can help. The government is hushing it because it fits their racist agenda. Time to show them that we won't stand for it. I can't do it alone. I don't even know where to start.

EDIT: Fsck these tweets and youtube clips. EVERYBODY KNOWS what is going on. NOBODY is doing a thing. Myself included.

Give me a solid tactic to combat it and I will come home to assist. I can't think of one.

 

[thestaggy]

I have no problem with private security shooting a criminal in self defense.

It is perfectly legal and no matter how much political noise will come from it it is better than dead farmers.

It's already a problem, saying farmers should not defend themselves and just die to avoid a politically sensitive situation is just stupid.

Where did I say farmers mustn't defend themselves? I said they cannot go it alone.

Political noise is the least concerning thing. Remember what happened in Eshowe when a security guard shot and killed a trespasser?

Farmer flees property before protesters set it alight

An eShowe farmer‚ fearing for his life‚ managed to flee his home just hours before it was overrun by a mob of rioters on Sunday night.

www.timeslive.co.za

In another incident a kid drowned and it caused chaos.

‘The farm owner found a group of people fishing illegally in the river yesterday and chased them away as it was on private property,’ the tenant said.

‘As they fled, a young boy jumped into the river and drowned. As revenge, the group arrived at the farm and burnt down almost everything, including four homesteads, workshops and the tractors. We were forced to flee.’

Mtubatuba farm comes under attack by angry community | Zululand Observer

Around 200 residents from the neighbouring community set fire to homesteads and equipment this afternoon

zululandobserver.co.za

Now have a bunch of guys in tactical gear driving around and then people start getting shot at and driven off. Throw in political agitation and you really have to be ignorant to things to not see where this could possibly end up.