Fastest SUV?

BCO said:
Anyone else think that the whole notion of the "fastest SUV" is a tad silly tho?
Click to expand...
Yeah. Though SUVs nowadays are mostly used to haul a single person to work & back, so not quite as irrelevant as one might think. :/
 
A performance SUV is not a SUV... it's a shiny gold watch saying "Look how much money I have to spend on a motor vehicle"

performance SUVs:

1) Can't go offroad - at all... you can't even mount a curb because you'll damage the low profile tires and/or the 20" alloy rim
2) They don't have more space than a regular car - not anymore
3) They're fuel consumption is silly
4) They can't go around corners...
5) They claim to be safer - well, buying a performance car because it is safer in a motor crash is a little fatalistic and a poor excuse.
6) They're practical? Not really - if you're looking for a car that's practical, why choose one that's the hardest to park and the most expensive to maintain. Surely a station wagon can fit it all in?
7) They're big, muscular and masculine... right? I always see Betties driving ze X5's and ze Q7's.

So why do they exist?

Because they cost a lot and they have more presence because of their size.
Performance SUV is an EGO extension. Hence the "Who'd win?" topic... no?

PS... I have a proper 4x4 (Toyota Hilux single cab 2.7 Raider)... and I got a SUV (Toyota Prado VX)
Guess who drives the Prado?
 
OverKill69 said:
A performance SUV is not a SUV... it's a shiny gold watch saying "Look how much money I have to spend on a motor vehicle"

performance SUVs:

1) Can't go offroad - at all... you can't even mount a curb because you'll damage the low profile tires and/or the 20" alloy rim
2) They don't have more space than a regular car - not anymore
3) They're fuel consumption is silly
4) They can't go around corners...
5) They claim to be safer - well, buying a performance car because it is safer in a motor crash is a little fatalistic and a poor excuse.
6) They're practical? Not really - if you're looking for a car that's practical, why choose one that's the hardest to park and the most expensive to maintain. Surely a station wagon can fit it all in?
7) They're big, muscular and masculine... right? I always see Betties driving ze X5's and ze Q7's.

So why do they exist?

Because they cost a lot and they have more presence because of their size.
Performance SUV is an EGO extension. Hence the "Who'd win?" topic... no?

PS... I have a proper 4x4 (Toyota Hilux single cab 2.7 Raider)... and I got a SUV (Toyota Prado VX)
Guess who drives the Prado?
Click to expand...

1. Yes they can, I mean the Cayenne turbo is not as capable as the Cayenne s which in turn is not as capable as for example a Range Rover but they can go off road. Little crazy but saying they can't go off road.... no. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ps0QNZoYW4
2. Ever been in a Q7?
3. True, but so are high performance sedans.
4. Yes they can - Watch the first 1.5min of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdE_qj-mQgs&feature=&p=56982494D2E2A4F5&index=0&playnext=1
5. No idea on how safe they are but I'm pretty sure they are just as safe as most sedans.
6. Hardest to park and expensive to maintain? If you have a license you should be able to park them just fine, they even come with things like reversing cameras and PDC. It's called motorplan/freeway plan.... services cost nothing. Tyres are a bit expensive however since they tend to run 275-315.
7. You want to use that as an argument???

It's actually quite funny since on the 4x4 events I have been the Raiders got stuck in areas the Prado/Range Rover/Land Cruisers didn't. :D
 
I'll never get the point of SUVs (unless you really want to go off-road, which very few of them are good at). Verbose inefficiency to the max.
 
I think the Porsche, Touareg and Audi are very capable offroaders - yet no one would take them offroad.

My parents had an ML270CDI, X5 3.0d, Touareg 2.5TDI, Touareg V10 and Porsche Cayenne Hybrid. They each have their place with some being great offroaders and others capable onroaders than can corner ;)
 
Dolby said:
I think the Porsche, Touareg and Audi are very capable offroaders - yet no one would take them offroad.

My parents had an ML270CDI, X5 3.0d, Touareg 2.5TDI, Touareg V10 and Porsche Cayenne Hybrid. They each have their place with some being great offroaders and others capable onroaders than can corner ;)
Click to expand...

Oooh, what's the Cayenne Hybrid like? *drool*
 
It's very cool - awesome system and it doesn't use tons of fuel because of it.

It doesn't fit in the super faster SUV class - but it is 6.5 seconds to 100km/h which isn't too bad. With th emotor engaged, it's only 279kw - but 580nm torque.
 
Dolby said:
It's very cool - awesome system and it doesn't use tons of fuel because of it.

It doesn't fit in the super faster SUV class - but it is 6.5 seconds to 100km/h which isn't too bad. With th emotor engaged, it's only 279kw - but 580nm torque.
Click to expand...

Dude a full sized SUV that does a 6.5 second 0-100 and uses under 10l/100km is a BRILLIANT all-rounder IMO.
 
HJF said:
1. Yes they can, I mean the Cayenne turbo is not as capable as the Cayenne s which in turn is not as capable as for example a Range Rover but they can go off road. Little crazy but saying they can't go off road.... no. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ps0QNZoYW4
2. Ever been in a Q7?
3. True, but so are high performance sedans.
4. Yes they can - Watch the first 1.5min of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdE_qj-mQgs&feature=&p=56982494D2E2A4F5&index=0&playnext=1
5. No idea on how safe they are but I'm pretty sure they are just as safe as most sedans.
6. Hardest to park and expensive to maintain? If you have a license you should be able to park them just fine, they even come with things like reversing cameras and PDC. It's called motorplan/freeway plan.... services cost nothing. Tyres are a bit expensive however since they tend to run 275-315.
7. You want to use that as an argument???

It's actually quite funny since on the 4x4 events I have been the Raiders got stuck in areas the Prado/Range Rover/Land Cruisers didn't. :D
Click to expand...

Alrighty... Lemme back up my comments a little better.

1) The performance SUVs, have all been tweaked to perform better on the road. So, they've ditched weighty things like "Low Range" and sump protection plates. They've also sacrificed articulating, long travel suspension for more rigid, performance suspension. But the biggest area that they've hindered the Off road capabilities of the performance SUVs is by fitting VAST slick, low profile tires that can't be deflated and by fitting ENORMOUS expensive rims that would get damaged by a thorn tree. Not to mention the WILLINGNESS of going through a thorn tree in your R1 500 000 jam jar? I don't care if I scratch the paint on my Hilux... coz, its a Hilux, it needs scratches for credibility!

2) They are spacious, BUT, they're NOT MORE SPACIOUS than another option, like a MPV or even a large saloon. So when people say they buy SUVs for the space, I think its a silly argument. If it's space you want, then a station wagon or a 7 seater MPV has more of it, and is not 5 hundred meters off the ground. And with Subaru's and Audi's wagons, they might be quicker too.

3) A high performance sedan with the same engine displacement will not consume as much as the 4x4 version. due to the permanent 4 wheel drive and the extra weight. Just saying that you'll feel your SUV when you go to the pumps MORE than a regular car of similar performance. To anticipate a point, they do have larger fuel tanks though!

4) (please note: I didn't watch the video - sorry) The fact that the SUV is higher off the ground and more top heavy, makes it much more difficult to maneuver around a corner at higher speeds. Perhaps my original comment was too "Clarkeson". It is, according to the laws of physics, much more difficult and expensive to make a performance SUV go around a track better than its low slung counterpart. which would be better around a track? The ML63 AMG? or the C63 AMG? or the E63 AMG? all 3 have the same engine... and the ML is the most expensive.

5) Their higher center of mass tends to make them "safer" in a crash with another vehicle. Because, most of the energy is diverted UP and over the other vehicle's center of mass, making the car decelerate more gently and without as much damage. The other car's energy however is diverted down and into more SUV or more road, which doesn't make it so kieff. My mother, for example, swears by her 4x4. She will not drive a sedan again because she BELIEVES that a SUV is safer (which it is to a degree). However, I feel that buying a performance SUV because it "might" be safer in a crash should not be the primary reason for buying a vehicle. By that rationale, we should ALL be driving Volvo XC-90's.

6) Dude, cmon... i won't even bother discussing the parking. They're much harder to park than a regular sized car. their longer wheelbase and higher height makes them more difficult to maneuver and turning the steering wheel from lock to lock while stationary with those MONSTER tires doesn't do the steering pump much good. As for maintenance: Those motor plans are factored into the price you pay for the car... and its only valid for 100 000kms, when your 4x4 passes that barrier... oh boy. My Grand Cherokee and my Prado had 10 billion things go wrong with them. Things that usually don't go wrong with their saloon or sedan counterparts. like I mentioned earlier, steering pumps, water pumps, drive belts and side shafts get damaged more often in a SUV. the parts are also generally bigger and more expensive. Prop shafts and gearboxes take more of a beating too.

7) Hahahaha, you got me there! I can't produce any data other than I usually notice Moms in their X5s! That could be BECAUSE I HAVE A PENIS, and I notice moms in ANY CAR! Hahaha!

Those SUVs you mentioned, LC's, and RR's are the most capable off-roaders money can buy. Their bare bones counterparts are used to penetrate terrain that would make my Hilux look silly. Land Cruisers (and their babies -the Prados) have got much more off-road gadgets and technology. Independent suspension with extra travel and traction control. They've got HDC and 2nd Gear start buttons. They've got auto-boxes and a computer. You know, LC's come standard with OME suspension, as well as proper tires.
My Hilux has leaf-springs at the back. And no weight at all on the rear wheels if there's nothing in the load bay... especially since its a single cab. The only traction control I have is the idiot operating the clutch and accelerator (Usually me). I also only have a 2.7 liter petrol engine while the LC's engine has enough torque to push start Saturn.
LC's, Prados, and RR's are not performance SUV's, they all still have Low-Range and they all are still built with going off road in mind... and they're brilliant!
My Hilux does have ONE THING that the other cars don't have... THE HILUX FACTOR!
I know I can wade through a river 1 meter high and stop in the middle so my mates on the back can throw things at the other cars! I know I can turn off the road and drive through the bushes to avoid the 5 car jam because someone's Ford Territory is stuck. I know I can put 6 stinky Divers on the back with wet gear and drive through the river to their parked X5s. I know I can help the dive operators launch their boats when their Defenders are acting up...
THAT ONE THING the Hilux has that other off-Roaders don't have, is +20 points to all stats. It's cheap and indestructible... It has what I like to call, "Personality"

Which is why I drive my Hilux to Ponta and Sodwana all the time and I leave the Prado.
 
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Regarding 1) Have you read, watched or been on a Touareg 4 x 4 course? It's considered a highly competent off road vehicle and leaves many gawking at it's abilities. I'd go far to say it'll do everything your Hilux will do ;) Yes, you wouldn't want to - but it can. My parents pulled a Fortuna out of river sand at Kruger Park with no issues at all. I mean the car pulled a 150 ton Boeing ...

Regarding 3), the Porsche Cayenne get's under 10l/100km for 279KW / 580nm and 0-100km/h in under 7 seconds. My RunX RSI and my Volvo were less powerful, slower, lighter and used more petrol. Consumption of the 2+ton cars is getting much better as time goes on.

Regarding 4), obviously it's no match for a saloon around a track - can't be expected. But some are fairly decent around corners and handling is no where near as bad as one would think. Granted, you get those that can't do too much on beends (ie SRT8) ...
 
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OverKill69 said:
Alrighty... Lemme back up my comments a little better.

1) The performance SUVs, have all been tweaked to perform better on the road. So, they've ditched weighty things like "Low Range" and sump protection plates. They've also sacrificed articulating, long travel suspension for more rigid, performance suspension. But the biggest area that they've hindered the Off road capabilities of the performance SUVs is by fitting VAST slick, low profile tires that can't be deflated and by fitting ENORMOUS expensive rims that would get damaged by a thorn tree. Not to mention the WILLINGNESS of going through a thorn tree in your R1 500 000 jam jar? I don't care if I scratch the paint on my Hilux... coz, its a Hilux, it needs scratches for credibility!

2) They are spacious, BUT, they're NOT MORE SPACIOUS than another option, like a MPV or even a large saloon. So when people say they buy SUVs for the space, I think its a silly argument. If it's space you want, then a station wagon or a 7 seater MPV has more of it, and is not 5 hundred meters off the ground. And with Subaru's and Audi's wagons, they might be quicker too.

3) A high performance sedan with the same engine displacement will not consume as much as the 4x4 version. due to the permanent 4 wheel drive and the extra weight. Just saying that you'll feel your SUV when you go to the pumps MORE than a regular car of similar performance. To anticipate a point, they do have larger fuel tanks though!

4) (please note: I didn't watch the video - sorry) The fact that the SUV is higher off the ground and more top heavy, makes it much more difficult to maneuver around a corner at higher speeds. Perhaps my original comment was too "Clarkeson". It is, according to the laws of physics, much more difficult and expensive to make a performance SUV go around a track better than its low slung counterpart. which would be better around a track? The ML63 AMG? or the C63 AMG? or the E63 AMG? all 3 have the same engine... and the ML is the most expensive.

5) Their higher center of mass tends to make them "safer" in a crash with another vehicle. Because, most of the energy is diverted UP and over the other vehicle's center of mass, making the car decelerate more gently and without as much damage. The other car's energy however is diverted down and into more SUV or more road, which doesn't make it so kieff. My mother, for example, swears by her 4x4. She will not drive a sedan again because she BELIEVES that a SUV is safer (which it is to a degree). However, I feel that buying a performance SUV because it "might" be safer in a crash should not be the primary reason for buying a vehicle. By that rationale, we should ALL be driving Volvo XC-90's.

6) Dude, cmon... i won't even bother discussing the parking. They're much harder to park than a regular sized car. their longer wheelbase and higher height makes them more difficult to maneuver and turning the steering wheel from lock to lock while stationary with those MONSTER tires doesn't do the steering pump much good. As for maintenance: Those motor plans are factored into the price you pay for the car... and its only valid for 100 000kms, when your 4x4 passes that barrier... oh boy. My Grand Cherokee and my Prado had 10 billion things go wrong with them. Things that usually don't go wrong with their saloon or sedan counterparts. like I mentioned earlier, steering pumps, water pumps, drive belts and side shafts get damaged more often in a SUV. the parts are also generally bigger and more expensive. Prop shafts and gearboxes take more of a beating too.

7) Hahahaha, you got me there! I can't produce any data other than I usually notice Moms in their X5s! That could be BECAUSE I HAVE A PENIS, and I notice moms in ANY CAR! Hahaha!

Those SUVs you mentioned, LC's, and RR's are the most capable off-roaders money can buy. Their bare bones counterparts are used to penetrate terrain that would make my Hilux look silly. Land Cruisers (and their babies -the Prados) have got much more off-road gadgets and technology. Independent suspension with extra travel and traction control. They've got HDC and 2nd Gear start buttons. They've got auto-boxes and a computer. You know, LC's come standard with OME suspension, as well as proper tires.
My Hilux has leaf-springs at the back. And no weight at all on the rear wheels if there's nothing in the load bay... especially since its a single cab. The only traction control I have is the idiot operating the clutch and accelerator (Usually me). I also only have a 2.7 liter petrol engine while the LC's engine has enough torque to push start Saturn.
LC's, Prados, and RR's are not performance SUV's, they all still have Low-Range and they all are still built with going off road in mind... and they're brilliant!
My Hilux does have ONE THING that the other cars don't have... THE HILUX FACTOR!
I know I can wade through a river 1 meter high and stop in the middle so my mates on the back can throw things at the other cars! I know I can turn off the road and drive through the bushes to avoid the 5 car jam because someone's Ford Territory is stuck. I know I can put 6 stinky Divers on the back with wet gear and drive through the river to their parked X5s. I know I can help the dive operators launch their boats when their Defenders are acting up...
THAT ONE THING the Hilux has that other off-Roaders don't have, is +20 points to all stats. It's cheap and indestructible... It has what I like to call, "Personality"

Which is why I drive my Hilux to Ponta and Sodwana all the time and I leave the Prado.
Click to expand...

1. You said they can't go off road at all.... they can. They can't go as off road as say a Range Rover but they can do quite interesting things. Go look for a video by Top Gear on the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, they take it on a 4x4 course with normal road tyres.
2. Have you ever been in a Q7?
3. Ever owned a high performance sedan? It's very very close to the consumption of the SUV's specially if you have a heavy right foot :(
4. So you changed from "They can't go around corners....." to "They can't go around corners as fast performance sedans" ? Well at least the revised one is true. The C63 does not have the same engine as the ML/E63, it's a detuned version of the same engine making 336kw and 600Nm vs 378kw and 630Nm for the E63. Watch the video, Cayenne Turbo Drifting is pretty crazy.
6. Never had any issues parking. In fact I found them easier to park than the S-Class Merc. "and its only valid for 100 000kms, when your 4x4 passes that barrier... oh boy." so why would you keep a car past the Motorplan??
7. :p
 
A Toureg is not a performance SUV, and yeah, it ain't bad off-road... never alluded to my Hilux being any more hardcore... just that I don't mind doing crazy stuff in it, which makes it my off road car of choice over my Prado. Which is more capable, but more expensive to repair or respray.
I got respect for a Toureg, especially since they don't have a lowered version with chrome kick plates, HUGE rims and low profile tires... with no LOW RANGE.
As soon as VW make one of those, then that PARTICULAR model will be off my "respect list" and into the "Probably will need to tow at some stage" list.
I go to Ponta quite regularly... and I always carry snatch ropes and my Hilux is fitted with rescue bars... coz I always end up being THAT GUY who has to help some poor dude who isn't experienced at all and has driven his X5 onto some really soft sand and hasn't deflated his tires. (and is towing a boat trailer).

I agree with you on the Fortuner.
It's a Hilux chassis, but they've changed the rear suspension from leaf-springs to independent. But, some Nipponese guy didn't do his maths properly... The change compromised the chassis' rigidity, which means the rear wheels lose traction when they shouldn't and the traction control system engages the wrong diffs at the wrong times... The automatic Fortuner has got to be the "most rescued vehicle" in Ponta do Oro.
Once this problem was pointed out to Toyota designers, they said that they were aware of the degradation in off-road performance, but estimated that 98% of its buyers would never take it on any terrain more challenging than gravel roads. EPIC FAIL.


ANY car can get good mileage if driven like a kitten. The more expensive big bore engines have got fantastic fuel management systems that engage fewer cylinders when driven softly. but engage the kick down, and the full 8 cylinder fury gets engaged. My ex GF's ol' man had a 750iL that did that... and it was a 92 model. I used to have a VR6 (don't ask... I got lucky at an auction), but for a student, it was a little heavy on juice. between 11 and 12 Liters per 100kms. I used to be able to get it down to 7 or 8 if I drove all economical. Never accelerating hard or stuff like that... but if you JUST DRIVE, without TRYING to conserve fuel, that thing drank like the English Cricket team.
My Prado is friggen thirsty too... which is why I drive it sparingly and when I do drive it, I drive like an old lady.
The simple fact of the matter is that SUV are heavier and they have permanent (the performance ones) 4 wheel drive engaged. Which will consume more fuel than a saloon or sedan in the same engine bracket. A 911 for example will consume less than a Cayenne if driven the same way. It's simple. A 5 series, will consume less than an X5. A E63, will consume less than an ML.

Around a track, a saloon/sedan will always be quicker, easier and safer. And why someone would consider an SUV for a track car is just mind boggling!

My arguments with regard to PERFORMANCE SUVs, are that they are nothing more than opulent extensions of EGO.
You could do EVERYTHING a performance SUV can do in a performance saloon/sedan better... and since there are performance wagons out there too, like the RS6, you can have the cavernous interior as well.

The REAL reason why people buy PRICEY, PERFORMANCE SUVs is NOT, the space, safety, off-road capability or practicality... It's coz they just want one!
That's all I've been saying.
I got nothing against fancy SUVs, hell... I own one... but I do have a problem when the SUV becomes more of a fashion statement than a SPORTS UTILITY VEHICLE... It's like a 3rd testicle, sure it would be great to play with... BUT WOULD YOU REALLY WANT ONE?

Why haven't there been performance MPV's? I mean, mommy and daddy need to gets the kids to soccer practice quickly right?

HJF said:
1. You said they can't go off road at all.... they can. They can't go as off road as say a Range Rover but they can do quite interesting things. Go look for a video by Top Gear on the Porsche Cayenne Turbo, they take it on a 4x4 course with normal road tyres.
2. Have you ever been in a Q7?
3. Ever owned a high performance sedan? It's very very close to the consumption of the SUV's specially if you have a heavy right foot :(
4. So you changed from "They can't go around corners....." to "They can't go around corners as fast performance sedans" ? Well at least the revised one is true. The C63 does not have the same engine as the ML/E63, it's a detuned version of the same engine making 336kw and 600Nm vs 378kw and 630Nm for the E63. Watch the video, Cayenne Turbo Drifting is pretty crazy.
6. Never had any issues parking. In fact I found them easier to park than the S-Class Merc. "and its only valid for 100 000kms, when your 4x4 passes that barrier... oh boy." so why would you keep a car past the Motorplan??
7. :p
Click to expand...

1) Hamster crashed that Cayenne. hahahaha! They showed it directly after that clip! You telling me a scoobie wouldn't have been a better car for that parachute stunt? Sure the Cayenne Turbo aint bad, But the "S" version has got 50s as std tires (profile).. c'mon!

2) I have... a VW Syncro has more SPACE ans is more off-road capable

3) I have, and I do... and I covered that argument above.

4) covered

6) Wow... imagine that! Someone keeping their car beyond their motor plan! Yes, I do... I'm GUILTY!
Because I look after my cars and I do not think that buying a new car every 4-5 years is a responsible way to spend my pocket money. Your re-sale value only comes into play when YOU SELL THE CAR, I drive em until they're dead. or I swing them down the line to other family members. My Jeep went to my mom, and my Prado will probably go that way when the jeep gives up the ghost.
Let's not argue about financial decisions, because that is a different argument all together. The fact of the matter is... SUV parts cost more than normal parts on average, coz they're bigger and more complicated. The motorplan IS FACTORED INTO THE PURCHASE PRICE OF THE CAR in any case... so you're being shafted without realising it dude. They're not stoopid when they do their sums at Sandown, Porsche or BMW... I know, because I did some of those sums for them at Sandown ;-)

As for parking... well, you're awesome.
P.S. They cost more to get washed at a carwash too! WTF!

7) Hehehehe!
 
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There are certainly performance-oriented Touaregs to be had.

850Nm sounds like the makings of a performance SUV to me... and on the topic of performance MPVs:

3051101.002_1020big.jpg

Not quite the numbers we're talking here, but it's been done. Of course I'd rather have this:

espace1.jpg

:D
 
I have to say I absolutely see the point to a performance SUV. Being higher up makes a big difference when driving. That higher viewpoint is awesome. Then something else that some people don't think of. There are people with, for example, bad knees who find it hard to get into an Audi R8 or even some of the performance sedans because they are pretty low.(Seating is quite low) They still want that power and acceleration that the performance sedans have which is found in the performance SUV. It's fast, comfy AND easy to get into.

I don't think I would buy one myself but they are great. They go like stink and can go a little offroad.

My personal choice for going fast would be soemthing like a RS5/M3/M5/RS6 because my knees still work :D
 
I suppose one has to define a performance SUV : the Touareg V10 is a 5 litre, twin turbo with 750nm torque at under 8 seconds at reef altitude is well - almost GTI league. So it's got a fair amount of performance for a 2.3 ton car and considered fairly performance orientated AND a more than capable off roader.

The Porsche Cayenne Hybrid is actually specced at 8.8l/100km or something - but driving fairly quickly in real world conditions, 11 or 12 is the norm. Just debunking the earlier thing of massive fuel consumption ;)

No one would (or should!) consider an SUV as a track car. But it is pretty nice having the 'almost best' of both worlds. My parents have a place near Kruger Park. You have 500km of decent road and then the last 50km is not *as* great ... with the final 10km being horrible. An RS6 definatley wouldn't make the trip and a Hilux would, but slowly and not as great comfort ;) Take a semi performance or performance SUV and you win every way you look at it.

I just really do think there is a place for them - that's all I'm saying *shrug*

A performance MPV ... don't you get a Meriva OPC with 177kw?
 
HAHAHAHA

Guys... I think we're all petrol heads at heart... we like cars than can shunt!

That toureg pic! OMS! That is exactly what I'm talking about!
They take a perfectly good car, with a diesel V10 that generates a mountain of torque that helps the "lesser experienced" driver out of mud and sand, and the more experienced driver to take it to the limit... and they go and put low profiles on! WTF! You would NEVER be able to go onto beach sand with that thing! All that massive torque will do is dig you in deeper!
*sigh*

"Performance SUVs" as I define it, is a SUV that has been tweaked to perform ON THE ROAD. Low Profile slicks, lowered suspension, no low range, and goes like STINK!

Love the OPC MPV! now when are we gonna see those with 300+ KW? HAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
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