Firearm Training Certificate Fraud

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BlindMelonChitlin

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Just saw an article on SABC news about an Andre van Tonder who sold their undercover journo a firearm license without any tests or proof of capacity to own a firearm. It appeared to be an SABC expose and I can't find anything about it online yet, anyone know if this is them?

http://www.skopos.co.za/


From this page:
http://www.destinyconnect.com/2014/07/29/our-members-are-competent-with-guns-saps/

Firearms expert from Skopos Firearms Academy André van Tonder says if police officers do not adhere to the basic rules of firearm competency, which involve how to handle a firearm and knowing how to point at a target, then that should be a cause for concern.
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Can't happen. A dealer cannot "sell" a license. He has to have a competency, which involves both a test, and an application for competency from the police.
I can see how a crooked trainer might sell a training certificate, but even that has checks and balances. And that will only allow you to apply for a competency.
Then, once you have that, you have to apply to the police for a license, and that has multiple stages and people it has to go through.
HIGHLY unlikely that someone besides a very high up police official could "organize" a license.
I'd like to hear more. Andre does run Skopos, but they are a very small shop with no great business being done there.
I have my doubts about the whole story.
Back about 5 or more years ago, there were individuals and syndicates who could organize things for large sums of money. But with PFTC trainers, and the staff that are currently at CFR and the Provincial departments overseeing stuff, it would be unlikely.
There are cops who have organized shortcuts...but a dealer would have little to no chance of doing this, and most I know would not bother. It's not like drivers licenses or vehicle licenses. THOSE are easy.

Edit to add: From what you wrote, it would seem more likely that a training certificate was sold (although no idea by whom or when) but if true, that does not get you a license and is a LONG way from buying a firearms license. And gunshops themselves are policing certificates along with PFTC and trying to weed out any corruption with them.
 
Glock26 said:
Can't happen. A dealer cannot "sell" a license. He has to have a competency, which involves both a test, and an application for competency from the police.
I can see how a crooked trainer might sell a training certificate, but even that has checks and balances. And that will only allow you to apply for a competency.
Then, once you have that, you have to apply to the police for a license, and that has multiple stages and people it has to go through.
HIGHLY unlikely that someone besides a very high up police official could "organize" a license.
I'd like to hear more. Andre does run Skopos, but they are a very small shop with no great business being done there.
I have my doubts about the whole story.
Back about 5 or more years ago, there were individuals and syndicates who could organize things for large sums of money. But with PFTC trainers, and the staff that are currently at CFR and the Provincial departments overseeing stuff, it would be unlikely.
There are cops who have organized shortcuts...but a dealer would have little to no chance of doing this, and most I know would not bother. It's not like drivers licenses or vehicle licenses. THOSE are easy.

Edit to add: From what you wrote, it would seem more likely that a training certificate was sold (although no idea by whom or when) but if true, that does not get you a license and is a LONG way from buying a firearms license. And gunshops themselves are policing certificates along with PFTC and trying to weed out any corruption with them.
Click to expand...

Competency certificates were sold without any theoretical or practical testing taking place at all...

And the said van Tonder is the chairman of some fire arms body.
 
Glock26 said:
Can't happen. A dealer cannot "sell" a license. He has to have a competency, which involves both a test, and an application for competency from the police.
I can see how a crooked trainer might sell a training certificate, but even that has checks and balances. And that will only allow you to apply for a competency.
Then, once you have that, you have to apply to the police for a license, and that has multiple stages and people it has to go through.
HIGHLY unlikely that someone besides a very high up police official could "organize" a license.
I'd like to hear more. Andre does run Skopos, but they are a very small shop with no great business being done there.
I have my doubts about the whole story.
Back about 5 or more years ago, there were individuals and syndicates who could organize things for large sums of money. But with PFTC trainers, and the staff that are currently at CFR and the Provincial departments overseeing stuff, it would be unlikely.
There are cops who have organized shortcuts...but a dealer would have little to no chance of doing this, and most I know would not bother. It's not like drivers licenses or vehicle licenses. THOSE are easy.

Edit to add: From what you wrote, it would seem more likely that a training certificate was sold (although no idea by whom or when) but if true, that does not get you a license and is a LONG way from buying a firearms license. And gunshops themselves are policing certificates along with PFTC and trying to weed out any corruption with them.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarity - certainly is a lot more to it that the average joe (read myself) doesn't get so the impression created by the news snippet wasn't accurate in my mind at least.

It was a piece of paper that said that the person was competent to handle a firearm - all they did was tell him that they were in a hurry for the paperwork and he printed it it seems... perhaps it was just a training certificate then. To be fair I was listening to the inset in my second language (Afrikaans) so some may have been lost in translation. Seemed like he admitted it was wrong / illegal of him to do that, but I think the TV guys may have also misunderstood what he was offering, albeit illegal.

I'll ping a mod to change the thread title once I can confirm details of the inset.
 
BlindMelonChitlin said:
Thanks for the clarity - certainly is a lot more to it that the average joe (read myself) doesn't get so the impression created by the news snippet wasn't accurate in my mind at least.

It was a piece of paper that said that the person was competent to handle a firearm - all they did was tell him that they were in a hurry for the paperwork and he printed it it seems... perhaps it was just a training certificate then. To be fair I was listening to the inset in my second language (Afrikaans) so some may have been lost in translation. Seemed like he admitted it was wrong / illegal of him to do that, but I think the TV guys may have also misunderstood what he was offering, albeit illegal.

I'll ping a mod to change the thread title once I can confirm details of the inset.
Click to expand...

I saw the insert and wrote what happened.
 
I'm at work, so I can't access the full media release, but on the Gun Owners of South Africa (GOSA) page they said they re aware of the allegations but that the SABC was a bit premature in their broadcast as the various checks and balances from the Professional Firearms Training Council (the guys responsible for the training/issuing of training certificates) would have likely picked it up at the end of the month.

To the OP, please ask a mod to change the title asap as it is very misleading. It is easier in South Africa to buy an unlicensed firearm from your closest taxi rank, than to buy a firearms license.
 
Still awaiting the expose on SAPS officials selling firearms to criminals that were handed in by law abiding gun owners....Oh, the SABC is the mouthpiece of the cANCer
 
freddster said:
Still awaiting the expose on SAPS officials selling firearms to criminals that were handed in by law abiding gun owners....Oh, the SABC is the mouthpiece of the cANCer
Click to expand...

Well, Afriforum is trying to get the number of "lost" firearms from SAPS (I use the term lost VERY loosely!).
 
freddster said:
...wasn't there resistance to giving those numbers out?
Click to expand...

Yes. SAPS says it is will compromise National Security if those numbers were to be revealed. I believe Afriforum is going to take this to court. They estimate that SAPS has "lost" around 7000 firearms (These are fully automatic R4's, R5's and various semi-automatic pistols and shotguns!).
 
AntennaMan said:
Yes. SAPS says it is will compromise National Security if those numbers were to be revealed. I believe Afriforum is going to take this to court. They estimate that SAPS has "lost" around 7000 firearms (These are fully automatic R4's, R5's and various semi-automatic pistols and shotguns!).
Click to expand...

Can anything actually compromise national security more than it already is?
 
AntennaMan said:
To the OP, please ask a mod to change the title asap as it is very misleading. It is easier in South Africa to buy an unlicensed firearm from your closest taxi rank, than to buy a firearms license.
Click to expand...
Gladly - make a suggestion for the title pls?
 
BlindMelonChitlin said:
Gladly - make a suggestion for the title pls?
Click to expand...

Maybe "Firearm Training Certificate Fraud" or something similar. I understand that to the layperson it might sound similar, but we as the legal firearm community already get so much bad publicity due to various people/organisations having agendas, that we must try and get the facts out there.

I have written about it before in other threads, but I will gladly set out the correct procedures to obtain a firearm license legally.
 
AntennaMan said:
Maybe "Firearm Training Certificate Fraud" or something similar. I understand that to the layperson it might sound similar, but we as the legal firearm community already get so much bad publicity due to various people/organisations having agendas, that we must try and get the facts out there.

I have written about it before in other threads, but I will gladly set out the correct procedures to obtain a firearm license legally.
Click to expand...

Thanks - will do
 
As suspected.
The training certificate is a very small part of getting the license. And since it usually only involves sitting through some lectures and then a few open book and closed book tests that are not difficult, the person buying a proficiency certificate has done what?....saved himself 3 or 4 days?
He still has to go the police and apply for competency. Has to show he has a safe. Has to have 3 people they can interview, has to not have a criminal record and is not medically unfit. Lots of things he still has to do.
And that only gets him competency! He still has to apply for a license.

And of course, that certificate he was buying would mean nothing without a statement of results, and PFTC would pick up the fraud fairly soon.

Not much news here. As mentioned, it is far easier to buy an illegal gun.
 
Glock26 said:
As suspected.
The training certificate is a very small part of getting the license. And since it usually only involves sitting through some lectures and then a few open book and closed book tests that are not difficult, the person buying a proficiency certificate has done what?....saved himself 3 or 4 days?
He still has to go the police and apply for competency. Has to show he has a safe. Has to have 3 people they can interview, has to not have a criminal record and is not medically unfit. Lots of things he still has to do.
And that only gets him competency! He still has to apply for a license.

And of course, that certificate he was buying would mean nothing without a statement of results, and PFTC would pick up the fraud fairly soon.

Not much news here. As mentioned, it is far easier to buy an illegal gun.
Click to expand...

In the segment van Tonder had produced a fake statement of results.
 
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