Gautrain speed shootout

[ponder]

or allow the gautrain trains to travel on ordinary (prasa) tracks?
I mean at least then the route network might be larger.

That's not possible, gautrain uses standard gauge 1435mm wide tracks while the rest of SA runs on 1067mm cape gauge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway

When crossing borders between some countries with different gauges they can do a bogey swap on the carriages but this is obviously not practical on short routes.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

No problem, what do you call a failed project that costs 1.2 billion a year in tax payers money to keep it running because at capacity it cant generate enough income to make a profit let alone break even?

How is it a failed project? Ticket prices would have to be way higher without subsidy. And unlike endless road expansion, it doesn't create congestion or pollute.

By that reasoning every road project is a massive failure because they require government subsidy.

PT is subsidised everywhere in the world, because they're more efficient and they provide benefits and savings down-stream, instead of incurring more costs like private vehicle dependence.

 

[Johnatan56]

MyCiti in 2010-2012 reported a loss of R140m: https://www.fin24.com/Economy/MyCiti-buses-running-at-a-loss-20120528
2017 fares are about 49% of costs: https://www.fin24.com/Economy/bus-rapid-transit-bleeding-cash-20170226-2 , with fares covering R103m, then having a R400m subsidy from 2017 to 2020, so R50m a year from government, and the CoCT covering the other 50m. Note this includes constant expansion costs.
Note the above is outdated in terms of income:

Another key milestone is that the MyCiTi bus service generated an estimated income of R21 409 327 from fares, advertising, events and chartered services in November 2017.


‘This is a record income, and the highest since the inception of the MyCiTi service in May 2010. A year-on-year comparison indicates that the income derived from the MyCiTi system has increased by over R2 million or 10,4% in November 2017 when compared with November 2016. This is a major achievement, and confirmation of our commitment to providing an affordable, but sustainable, public transport service to Cape Town’s residents,’ said Councillor Herron.

https://myciti.org.za/en/about/medi...-income-passenger-numbers-for-myciti-service/

With November 2017 having 220k rides on the N2 Express route only, by which I assume Khayelitsha.

The numbers are probably substantially higher now, and it was quite noticeable how many cars it took off the road when we had the bus driver strikes.

The Gautrain makes too high of a loss due to corruption, a loss in itself is fine if it brings enough income. MyCiti probably serves tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people, subsidizing R100-R1000 a year pp is fine, they will bring back way more in taxes/lower road usage.

 

[Creag]

I thought there was a shootout at a Gautrain station.

Drive-by...

 

[lived666]

How is it a failed project? Ticket prices would have to be way higher without subsidy. And unlike endless road expansion, it doesn't create congestion or pollute.

So we agree, that's exactly why it's a failed project - it is commercially unable to sustain itself, it can't even cover its basic running costs.

Generally Public Transport is subsided to either assist the poor population or to encourage people to use it for various reasons, such as pollution, traffic congestion etc, and not because it is an economically failed project.

The Gautrain is probably the only subsided public transport catering for upper and middle class population. The subsidy is equal to a massive R60.00 per person per trip. It means that be able to just break even every ticket ride needs to cost R60 more and no-one would use it.

Now not to say the Gautrain isn't great, it has its benefits, yes of course it eases traffic congestion and pollutes less etc blah blah, but as a commercial enterprise, it is a dismal failure.

 

[ToxicBunny]

So we agree, that's exactly why it's a failed project - it is commercially unable to sustain itself, it can't even cover its basic running costs.

Generally Public Transport is subsided to either assist the poor population or to encourage people to use it for various reasons, such as pollution, traffic congestion etc, and not because it is an economically failed project.

The Gautrain is probably the only subsided public transport catering for upper and middle class population. The subsidy is equal to a massive R60.00 per person per trip. It means that be able to just break even every ticket ride needs to cost R60 more and no-one would use it.

Now not to say the Gautrain isn't great, it has its benefits, yes of course it eases traffic congestion and pollutes less etc blah blah, but as a commercial enterprise, it is a dismal failure.

It's a public transport system... It's not a commercial enterprise... The new york mta loses over $6bn annually... The London underground setup was subsidized to the tune of 700m pounds annually until recently...

 

[Utterly Confused]

been wondering about this for years, why hasnt the route network been extended?

or allow the gautrain trains to travel on ordinary (prasa) tracks?
I mean at least then the route network might be larger.


I mean in France the TGV sometimes goes fast, and sometimes goes slow as a snail when its on old sections of tracks.
so why cant they do it here?

Can't be done. Gautrain runs on a 4ft 8in rail gauge while prasa rail gauge is 3ft 6 ins.

 

[pinball wizard]

The Gautrain is probably the only subsided public transport catering for upper and middle class population.

Apparently New York and London disagree with you.

 

[lived666]

It's a public transport system... It's not a commercial enterprise... The new york mta loses over $6bn annually... The London underground setup was subsidized to the tune of 700m pounds annually until recently...

Except it wasn't planned to be a subsidized public transport system and especially not at the rates it is now, but various factors have contributed to the current situation. It is because of the current massive subsidy that the expansion of the project is being delayed.

The subsidy for a metrorail passenger is around R4 a ticket, for the Gautrain R60 a ticket - that is the issue, that it is why its a failure.

 

[lived666]

Apparently New York and London disagree with you.

Nope, they cater for the general population and have a fair share of poor passengers, I don't see many poor people riding the Gautrain, do you?
Metrorail on the other hand is probably comparable to what NY and London have to offer - and there the subsidy per ticket is way less than the Gautrain.

 

[pinball wizard]

Nope, they cater for the general population and have a fair share of poor passengers, I don't see many poor people riding the Gautrain, do you?

I use it, and I have noted on this forum previously that I seem to have slipped out the bottom of the middle class, so you decide. I'll say again, whatever language you want to use, I'd rather have my tax Rand spent on this than any number of other failures or just outright stolen.

Of course there's also the fact that I'm optimistic by nature. You sound a lot like that guy on the loadshedding thread bitching about loadshedding that he thinks is coming next week.

 

[lived666]

I use it, and I have noted on this forum previously that I seem to have slipped out the bottom of the middle class, so you decide. I'll say again, whatever language you want to use, I'd rather have my tax Rand spent on this than any number of other failures or just outright stolen.

Of course there's also the fact that I'm optimistic by nature. You sound a lot like that guy on the loadshedding thread bitching about loadshedding that he thinks is coming next week.

Meh, if you can afford the Gautrain tickets then you middle class, maybe lower middle class according to you, I dunno your financial situation.

Anyhow whatever dude, if you think that R60 a per ticket subsidy is ok and a government success story, so be it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of the Gautrain, it really pains me that it costs us R100 million a month to run.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Except it wasn't planned to be a subsidized public transport system and especially not at the rates it is now, but various factors have contributed to the current situation. It is because of the current massive subsidy that the expansion of the project is being delayed.

The subsidy for a metrorail passenger is around R4 a ticket, for the Gautrain R60 a ticket - that is the issue, that it is why its a failure.

Yes it was... The deal included an annual subsidy from the gauteng treasury.

 

[lived666]

Yes it was... The deal included an annual subsidy from the gauteng treasury.

Yes, It was supposed to be a subsidy until profitable, but not at R60 a ticket, and not indefinitely, it wasn't expected to be the economical failure it is.

From government:

On Monday, Deputy Minister of Transport Jeremy Cronin said such a guarantee had been on the cards but said he had not been aware of the size of it.

National Treasury intergovernmental relations deputy director-general Malijeng Ngqaleni noted in June that the current system of public transport subsidies, largely “subsidising the middle class”, was “clearly not sustainable”. She referred to the Gautrain as the recipient of a “huge subsidy”.

In the case of operating the Gautrain, however, the private partner carries very little risk indeed. It cannot lose. As long as it runs trains more or less on time, the financial operating risk lies entirely with Gauteng taxpayers

Now we know the answer. In a splendid example of large-scale crony-capitalism, the government takes billions from the hardworking citizens of Gauteng, most of whom do not use the Gautrain and many of whom compete against it, and gives that money to a private company to ensure tasty profits. What a sweet, sweet deal if you can bribe your way to getting it.

 

[lived666]

makes for interesting reading:
https://pmg.org.za/committee-meeting/5883/
Gautrain Project: briefing

 

[OrbitalDawn]

So we agree, that's exactly why it's a failed project - it is commercially unable to sustain itself, it can't even cover its basic running costs.

Generally Public Transport is subsided to either assist the poor population or to encourage people to use it for various reasons, such as pollution, traffic congestion etc, and not because it is an economically failed project.

The Gautrain is probably the only subsided public transport catering for upper and middle class population. The subsidy is equal to a massive R60.00 per person per trip. It means that be able to just break even every ticket ride needs to cost R60 more and no-one would use it.

Now not to say the Gautrain isn't great, it has its benefits, yes of course it eases traffic congestion and pollutes less etc blah blah, but as a commercial enterprise, it is a dismal failure.

Not quite. Public transport (and indeed all major transport infrastructure) is subsidised because it's the only real way to fund them, both in capital investment and long-term operation. They're enormously expensive to build and run, and the only real way is to spread the load through public investment.

Metro systems elsewhere in the world are much older and more established than Gautrain so their cost has leveled off a lot. When they were first built they were also insanely expensive to get up and running.

And as I said, the benefits come down-stream - economic development, public health, productivity, healthier environment, less wear on other infrastructure, etc. They're not directly calculated or measured in most commercial transport analysis at point of operation.

 

[Sinbad]

Meh, if you can afford the Gautrain tickets then you middle class, maybe lower middle class according to you, I dunno your financial situation.

Anyhow whatever dude, if you think that R60 a per ticket subsidy is ok and a government success story, so be it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of the Gautrain, it really pains me that it costs us R100 million a month to run.

Gautrain is cheaper than driving...

 

[Johnatan56]

https://www.gautrain.co.za/commuter/farecalc

Same distance is 43km says Google, with lower options, so lets say 80km there and back, 5x = 400km. Most cars are at about 6-7l/100km, then let's add an extra liter or so for wear and tear, probably need to another another on top of that to pay for the loan everyone took, but let's not do that, and use a nice number of 8/100 -> 40l a week. Current petrol price is R16.48, which is R660 a week. That's assuming a moderately petrol efficient car, not including the ~30 minutes saved since no traffic according to Google (probably way higher in traffic), or the license disk, etc.

For a lot who cannot afford a car and cannot risk taking a taxi, the train seems like a viable option. Still way more expensive than Myciti here in CT though, but at least it's something (Myciti monthly pass is R850).