Getting the Promotion

[Pho3nix]

Morning all,

So I'm a Junior *** but feel my role and responsibilities align more to a senior role.

Have a portfolio of evidence and all but I'm struggling with a couple things.

1. How do I bring all this up without comparing myself to the seniors currently doing the job. Corporate environment so some politics is always at play.

2. Can I speak to my line manager or would his/my Department head be a better avenue.
I ask this because our entire team was made perm a year ago and my manager is still adjusting to his role and this is really bugging me and would like it sorted from the top.

Thoughts and advice?

 

[falcon786]

Morning all,

So I'm a Junior *** but feel my role and responsibilities align more to a senior role.

Have a portfolio of evidence and all but I'm struggling with a couple things.

1. How do I bring all this up without comparing myself to the seniors currently doing the job. Corporate environment so some politics is always at play.

Don't compare to or downgrade the others currently there,they will be your peers/superiors going forward.If anything you need to sell yourself as better than them (with out running them down its a very fine line and you should thread carefully or risk becoming ingrained in politics at the company moving forward) as something new and innovative yet dependable that the company needs.They don't need more of the same most likely but a spark of new energy that is also dependable could be just what they need at management level.

2. Can I speak to my line manager or would his/my Department head be a better avenue.
I ask this because our entire team was made perm a year ago and my manager is still adjusting to his role and this is really bugging me and would like it sorted from the top.

Thoughts and advice?

Both,first speak to your line manager and ask him for his support,once he is in the know you can speak to others above his head so that if it doesn't work out at least your line manager wont have trust issues with you since you didn't go behind his back so to speak.Also your company seniors will end up asking him about your performance so if you don't have his support it goes against you especially if they don't know you so well.

At the end of the day this is just general advice but it may vary depending on your specific circumstances so its not set in stone by any means and at the end of the day you will have to decide if it will work for your situation.For example maybe you got a complete idiot line manager who would love nothing more than to hold you back to do his dirty work and then this might not be the best way forward.

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

Another vote for leaving your co-workers out of it. Most corporates have job descriptions for different levels/roles. It yours does take a copy of that role description and prepare a summary of how you have been filling the role.

 

[CamiKaze]

In my experience, talking does not help.
Management would want to keep you in a position for as long as possible.

Just apply for a job with a higher role, sorted. You will get an increase from that as well.

 

[Sonic2k]

In my experience, talking does not help.
Management would want to keep you in a position for as long as possible.

Just apply for a job with a higher role, sorted. You will get an increase from that as well.

What he said

 

[nakedpeanut]

Morning all,

So I'm a Junior *** but feel my role and responsibilities align more to a senior role.

Have a portfolio of evidence and all but I'm struggling with a couple things.

1. How do I bring all this up without comparing myself to the seniors currently doing the job. Corporate environment so some politics is always at play.

2. Can I speak to my line manager or would his/my Department head be a better avenue.
I ask this because our entire team was made perm a year ago and my manager is still adjusting to his role and this is really bugging me and would like it sorted from the top.

Thoughts and advice?

So I just bolded two important pieces there. What are you using as a comparison?
There are often role based objects that one must meet before being progressed to the next role.
I've had a promotion delayed because i was not meeting one of the criteria. So even though I was technically competent, and already mentoring those around me, I couldn't progress.

You need to talk to your line manager and see what is needed to prove yourself, to progress to the next level. It might be that you lack leadership/communication/interdepartmental or client professional relationships etc.

If your company has no such metrics to grade employee's, then you'll have to look at what the job roles are advertised as requiring.
But in the end take it up with your line manager first. It makes them look bad, as well as causes tension if you go directly over their head.

As a side note, try to never badmouth anyone, water cooler chit chat can came back to bite you!

 

[Cicero]

Talking to management does help and can work, but remember, you only have a limited number of times in your career with a company you can do this effectively, think of it like crying wolf.

If you complain every 6 months for example, they'll just end up ignoring you. If you wait a few years, then you have leverage and credibility.

 

[Sonic2k]

I disagree
Never ever had a promotion in my 20 years working.
Got to where I am by moving on to other companies.

I did ask once and was told that if I wanted more money there is the door and it mustn't hit my arse on the way out

 

[CamiKaze]

Asking management for a promotion is a sign that you will never grow.
Why must you bring it to his/her attention in the first place?
Why do you have to list the tasks that were given to you during the year just to negotiate a higher performance rating?
He/she is your manager... That is their job, to know these things.

You Senior Programmers that give you some programming tasks can comment on how you have progressed if ever the manager needed to know what your progression is like.

I have had a title change in the past from trainee Programmer; to Programmer, to Senior Programmer.
There was never a Promotional increase that came with this, but due to my annual increase/s; my salary would eventually be aligned with the title that correlates with that salary band, hence the title change.

I would advise anyone that if they feel the need to ask for promotions and you having to negotiate within your performance review for a higher rating, then you have hit the glass ceiling for what that manager has set out for you and it's probably time to leave.

 

[Waaib]

Asking management for a promotion is a sign that you will never grow.
Why must you bring it to his/her attention in the first place?
Why do you have to list the tasks that were given to you during the year just to negotiate a higher performance rating?
He/she is your manager... That is their job, to know these things.

As a manager I disagree with this. Many people at many levels are more than happy to stay where they are. I need to know if you want to move up or sideways so I can help you do that.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I've had a few people join my teams over the years when another manager mentioned they needed to promote someone but had no space to do it and I had an open role.

There's a guy now who's several levels above me but a few years ago worked in my team. If he hadn't spoken up about a different interest (he wanted to be out of sales and more technical) I'd have never known and he probably would have left which would have been a loss to the company.

I guess what I'm waffling on about is that managers usually act with the organizations greater goals in mind and don't hold back talent because in the bigger picture they want the company to win.

 

[TehStranger]

As a manager I disagree with this. Many people at many levels are more than happy to stay where they are. I need to know if you want to move up or sideways so I can help you do that.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I've had a few people join my teams over the years when another manager mentioned they needed to promote someone but had no space to do it and I had an open role.

There's a guy now who's several levels above me but a few years ago worked in my team. If he hadn't spoken up about a different interest (he wanted to be out of sales and more technical) I'd have never known and he probably would have left which would have been a loss to the company.

I guess what I'm waffling on about is that managers usually act with the organizations greater goals in mind and don't hold back talent because in the bigger picture they want the company to win.

I can confirm, good management does this.

 

[NiTeD]

I disagree
Never ever had a promotion in my 20 years working.
Got to where I am by moving on to other companies.

I did ask once and was told that if I wanted more money there is the door and it mustn't hit my arse on the way out

 

[Lukcydog]

As a manager I disagree with this. Many people at many levels are more than happy to stay where they are. I need to know if you want to move up or sideways so I can help you do that.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I've had a few people join my teams over the years when another manager mentioned they needed to promote someone but had no space to do it and I had an open role.

There's a guy now who's several levels above me but a few years ago worked in my team. If he hadn't spoken up about a different interest (he wanted to be out of sales and more technical) I'd have never known and he probably would have left which would have been a loss to the company.

I guess what I'm waffling on about is that managers usually act with the organizations greater goals in mind and don't hold back talent because in the bigger picture they want the company to win.

I can concur with this as well... Very well stated Waaib!

 

[cguy]

I have found it to be very important to clearly communicate my career goals when I want to perform a different job function, e.g., become a manager, switch from pure dev work to more quantitative work, etc. Otherwise your management chain just doesn't know (ie don't expect to eventually be made a manager if you've never let it be known). It is also important to have a record of good performance when making such requests.

Requesting a promotion, where the promotion is not actually a role/"job type" change (e.g., junior dev to dev, to senior dev, to lead dev, etc.) is generally a bad idea - you shouldn't have to ask for this - if you do, you're either not as good as you think, or you are being undervalued, either way it's unlikely to work out well.

 

[MickeyD]

As a manager I disagree with this. Many people at many levels are more than happy to stay where they are. I need to know if you want to move up or sideways so I can help you do that.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I've had a few people join my teams over the years when another manager mentioned they needed to promote someone but had no space to do it and I had an open role.

There's a guy now who's several levels above me but a few years ago worked in my team. If he hadn't spoken up about a different interest (he wanted to be out of sales and more technical) I'd have never known and he probably would have left which would have been a loss to the company.

I guess what I'm waffling on about is that managers usually act with the organizations greater goals in mind and don't hold back talent because in the bigger picture they want the company to win.

^this

@OP: if you are not comfortable chatting to your manager then you are stuffed. If he/she is a poor manager then your best bet is to take CamiKaze's advice and apply for a higher graded post elsewhere.

 

[SaoirseB]

Morning all,

So I'm a Junior *** but feel my role and responsibilities align more to a senior role.

Have a portfolio of evidence and all but I'm struggling with a couple things.

1. How do I bring all this up without comparing myself to the seniors currently doing the job. Corporate environment so some politics is always at play.

2. Can I speak to my line manager or would his/my Department head be a better avenue.
I ask this because our entire team was made perm a year ago and my manager is still adjusting to his role and this is really bugging me and would like it sorted from the top.

Thoughts and advice?

Yes. Speak up. No one but you can drive your career. First speak to your line manager and if there's no progress after 2-3 month go over his head. Firstly you need to know your swot. Then tell your manager where you see yourself in 6-12 months time and highlight your strengths and point out that you're keen to get some training for your weak points. Then ask him what he believes you need to achieve that goal. You will need to keep pushing.

 

[CamiKaze]

As a manager I disagree with this.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I agree with this provided you have a good manager.

The same does not apply to other managers/companies. I've been told before by my previous manager who happens to be a priest as well that God does not want us to have things in life, we must take what we get from him and be happy with it. Therefore, I must be happy with the 3.5/5.0 rating that he gave me. This was in his words.

I decided Fsck you, I'm going to apply elsewhere in the same company. I am getting 4.0 - 4.5s now.

So what I am trying to say is that maybe you disagree with my previous statement if ever there was a good manager around, but given the above example you can see why I believe that you should rather jump instead of negotiating with someone that clearly wants to keep you at a certain level.

Or should the manager not see that someone has potential and therefore be rewarded and promoted out of his own instead of having the conversation? Or does it come down to me actually going to the line manager and asking for a promotion? Is that the only thing holding me back from a promotion?

This is a general question and I genuinely want to know, you can't always tell how management will react.

 

[whatwhat]

The problem with companies asking you to do the next profile for a year before the promotion means they always win - you are giving them heaps of extra work for the lower salary for free.

It might be time to look elsewhere.

 

[Pho3nix]

So I just bolded two important pieces there. What are you using as a comparison?
There are often role based objects that one must meet before being progressed to the next role.
I've had a promotion delayed because i was not meeting one of the criteria. So even though I was technically competent, and already mentoring those around me, I couldn't progress.

You need to talk to your line manager and see what is needed to prove yourself, to progress to the next level. It might be that you lack leadership/communication/interdepartmental or client professional relationships etc.

If your company has no such metrics to grade employee's, then you'll have to look at what the job roles are advertised as requiring.
But in the end take it up with your line manager first. It makes them look bad, as well as causes tension if you go directly over their head.

As a side note, try to never badmouth anyone, water cooler chit chat can came back to bite you!

Thanks for the advice. We don't have JD's per se as our levels were aligned to our salaries when we joined. We were contractors before hand.
I was at a lower rate and the rate aligned to that of a junior.

Had a general chat in not so many words with my manager and he didn't seem keen no reasons stated but in reviews I'm doing steller work.
Client work is also great, looking at the feedback I have.

As for the last bit, I wasn't going to bad mouth anyone. More of a comparison with roles and responsibilities.
I asked because in my mind, this also seems a little dodge.

Talking to management does help and can work, but remember, you only have a limited number of times in your career with a company you can do this effectively, think of it like crying wolf.

If you complain every 6 months for example, they'll just end up ignoring you. If you wait a few years, then you have leverage and credibility.

Hmm... Thanks. I get what you mean.

I disagree
Never ever had a promotion in my 20 years working.
Got to where I am by moving on to other companies.

I did ask once and was told that if I wanted more money there is the door and it mustn't hit my arse on the way out

Asking management for a promotion is a sign that you will never grow.
Why must you bring it to his/her attention in the first place?
Why do you have to list the tasks that were given to you during the year just to negotiate a higher performance rating?
He/she is your manager... That is their job, to know these things.

You Senior Programmers that give you some programming tasks can comment on how you have progressed if ever the manager needed to know what your progression is like.

I have had a title change in the past from trainee Programmer; to Programmer, to Senior Programmer.
There was never a Promotional increase that came with this, but due to my annual increase/s; my salary would eventually be aligned with the title that correlates with that salary band, hence the title change.

I would advise anyone that if they feel the need to ask for promotions and you having to negotiate within your performance review for a higher rating, then you have hit the glass ceiling for what that manager has set out for you and it's probably time to leave.

Spoken to my colleagues and stated my argument. They had some reservations because of the years of experience disparity but turned that around with my responsibilities + abilities argument + expertise in some stuff they don't know.

Was going to wait until next years reviews but this is rubbing me the wrong way.

 

[Pho3nix]

As a manager I disagree with this. Many people at many levels are more than happy to stay where they are. I need to know if you want to move up or sideways so I can help you do that.

Especially when there's levels between me and the people I manage. A casual chat, no formal meeting required but 10 minutes at my desk, to say you are keen to move and is a good thing. If your work is good then a more senior manager will easily check that with your peers etc.

I've had a few people join my teams over the years when another manager mentioned they needed to promote someone but had no space to do it and I had an open role.

There's a guy now who's several levels above me but a few years ago worked in my team. If he hadn't spoken up about a different interest (he wanted to be out of sales and more technical) I'd have never known and he probably would have left which would have been a loss to the company.

I guess what I'm waffling on about is that managers usually act with the organizations greater goals in mind and don't hold back talent because in the bigger picture they want the company to win.

I've stated to him and the department head that I want a bigger challenge or role but *crickets*.

If someone gave me a reason why they don't think I'm competent, that I would except but this quite is like a festering wound.

I have found it to be very important to clearly communicate my career goals when I want to perform a different job function, e.g., become a manager, switch from pure dev work to more quantitative work, etc. Otherwise your management chain just doesn't know (ie don't expect to eventually be made a manager if you've never let it be known). It is also important to have a record of good performance when making such requests.

Requesting a promotion, where the promotion is not actually a role/"job type" change (e.g., junior dev to dev, to senior dev, to lead dev, etc.) is generally a bad idea - you shouldn't have to ask for this - if you do, you're either not as good as you think, or you are being undervalued, either way it's unlikely to work out well.

This is honestly how I feel. Like I mentioned to another poster when I mentioned my opinion on the matter to another senior dev he also had his misgivings but I stated my points and even he saw that I had a point.

^this

@OP: if you are not comfortable chatting to your manager then you are stuffed. If he/she is a poor manager then your best bet is to take CamiKaze's advice and apply for a higher graded post elsewhere.

Actually like my team. Been working with my manager for 3 years+ so no issues speaking to him but more worried he won't action anything because he is also "new".
Any harm in sending out feelers while I give this take one more try?