How is MWEB a Tier 1 network?

Like has been mentioned, there are NO Tier 1 ISPs in SA....

Even tho Neotel is partially owned by Tata, this does not qualify them as Tier 1...
 
That's not correct. MTN, IS and Tenet are probably Tier 1 ISPs, there may be others.

That's a bit misleading. Peering agreements are very much always a shared cost since fibre does not grow on trees, so someone always pays for bandwidth but not always IP transit, however the net contribution from each side may be equal in many circumstances, or at various points in time. It's impossible to say they are settlement free all the time.

More importantly though, Seacom and SAT-3 are not IP transit. The problem is that none of these businesses are going to disclose their IP transit settlements if they have any.

Dude, can you read?

There are no Tier1 Service Providers in SA, end of story. It's not a debate, it's fact.
 
Hi,

The term Tier 1 is used in the SA context to describe a provider which operates their own layer 2 international connectivity to extend their IP range (ASN) internationally where it is interconnected to the greater Internet via IP transit purchased from global IP carrier(s). While not strictly in line with the international definition the term has been used as such for many years locally.

MWB.
 
While not strictly in line with the international definition the term has been used as such for many years locally.

Just like the term uncapped is used by certain ISP's. The term is used wrongfully to bolster their image.
 
Dude, can you read?

There are no Tier1 Service Providers in SA, end of story. It's not a debate, it's fact.

I can read. Can you?

Please prove to me that MTN, IS and Tenet purchase IP transit.
 
Please prove to me that MTN, IS and Tenet purchase IP transit.

Where do you think they get their bandwidth from? Do you think they rolled out a global IP network stretching the globe peering with the real "Tier1" providers? Do you have any idea what a Tier1 network even looks like wrt size, topology etc. SA networks would fall within the realms of a backwater ISP based in a Luisiana dorpie, that is how we compare.

If they were a Tier1 network you would not see your traffic exiting their AS when they reached london if your packets are destined for Canada as an example. I'm not on their networks but if I was I would prove to you in black in white via a simple traceroute that they are mickey mouse networks and not Tier1.



This is from the MWEB rep,
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...er-1-network&p=3774086&viewfull=1#post3774086
Hi,

The term Tier 1 is used in the SA context to describe a provider which operates their own layer 2 international connectivity to extend their IP range (ASN) internationally where it is interconnected to the greater Internet via IP transit purchased from global IP carrier(s). While not strictly in line with the international definition the term has been used as such for many years locally.

MWB.

The local definition has fsckall to do with the definition of a Tier1 provider. And even their definition is false in what they state as they DO NOT own the layer 2 connectivity, they rent it via one of the consortium of owners of the cable.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#Definition
Definition

Although there is no authority which has defined the "tiers" of Internet networks, the most common definition is:
“ A network that can reach every other network on the Internet without purchasing IP transit or paying settlements.[1] ”
By this definition, a Tier 1 network is a transit-free network that does not pay settlements to any other network to reach any other portion of the Internet. Therefore, in order to be a Tier 1 network, a network must peer with every other Tier 1 network. But not all transit-free networks are Tier 1 networks. It is possible to become transit free by paying for peering or agreeing to settlements.
It is trivial[citation needed] to objectively prove (or disprove) a network is transit free[when defined as?]. The fourteen (14) networks listed below are thought to be the only transit free (as of July 2008).[original research?] The most widely quoted source is Renesys Corporation, but the base information to prove the claim is publicly accessible from many locations, such as the RIPE RIS database, the Oregon Route Views servers, the Packet Clearing House, and others.
It is impossible for an outside authority to confirm that a network is not paying settlements of any type because such business agreements are frequently not public information, or even covered under a Non-Disclosure Agreement. The information presented here is the best collective knowledge of the Internet peering community. There is little disagreement amongst the community itself, even though there is no quotable source for the information. For clarity, here we will define the "peering community" as the set of peering coordinators for networks which are present at Internet exchanges on at least two continents.
It is commonly believed[by whom?] that observing this definition strictly would result in every network being disqualified. For instance, many large telephone companies who are also Tier 1 networks buy, sell, or swap fiber amongst themselves. Even if it were possible to list every transaction, it is not possible to know if some of those transactions were required for or in payment of a peering connection.
As a result, the term Tier 1 network is used in the industry to mean a network with no overt settlements. An overt settlement would be a monetary charge for the amount, direction, or type of traffic sent between networks.
Common definitions of Tier 2 and Tier 3 networks:
Tier 2: A network that peers with some networks, but still purchases IP transit or pays settlements to reach at least some portion of the Internet.
Tier 3: A network that solely purchases transit from other networks to reach the Internet.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#Marketing_issues
Marketing issues

Because there is no formal definition or authoritative body which determines who is and is not a Tier 1, the term is often misused as a marketing slogan rather than an accurate technical description of a network. Frequent misconceptions of the "tier hierarchy" include:
Tier 1 networks are closer to the "center" of the Internet.
In reality, Tier 1 networks usually have only a small number of peers (typically only other Tier 1s and very large Tier 2s), while Tier 2 networks are motivated to peer with many other Tier 2 and end-user networks. Thus a Tier 2 network with good peering is frequently much "closer" to most end users or content than a Tier 1.
Tier 1 networks by definition offer "better" quality Internet connectivity.
By definition, there are networks which Tier 1 networks have only one path to, and if they lose that path, they have no "backup transit" which would preserve their full connectivity.
Some Tier 2 networks are significantly larger than some Tier 1 networks, and are often able to provide more or better connectivity.
Tier 2 networks are "resellers" of Tier 1 networks.
Only Tier 3 networks (who provide Internet access) are true "resellers", while many large Tier 2 networks peer with the majority or even vast majority of the Internet directly except for a small portion of the Internet which is reached via a transit provider.
Because the "tier" ranking system is used in marketing and sales, a long-held though generally misguided view among customers is that they should "only purchase from a Tier 1". Because of this, many networks claim to be Tier 1 even though they are not, while honest networks may lose business to those who only wish to purchase from a Tier 1. The frequent misuse of the term has led to a corruption of the meaning, whereby almost every network claims to be a Tier 1 even though it is not. The issue is further complicated by the almost universal use of non-disclosure agreements among Tier 1 networks, which prevent the disclosure of details regarding their settlement-free interconnections.
Some of the incorrect measurements which are commonly cited include numbers of routers, route miles of fiber optic cable, or number of customers using a particular network. These are all valid ways to measure the size, scope, capacity, and importance of a network, but they have no direct relationship to Tier 1 status.
Another common area of debate is whether it is possible to become a Tier 1 through the purchase of "paid peering", or settlement-based interconnections, whereby a network "buys" the status of Tier 1 rather than achieving it through settlement-free means. While this may simulate the routing behaviors of a Tier 1 network, it does not simulate the financial or political peering motivations, and is thus considered by most Peering Coordinators to not be a true Tier 1 for most discussions.
[edit]Global issues

See also: Internet Exchange Point
A common point of contention among people discussing Tier 1 networks is the concept of a "regional Tier 1". A regional Tier 1 network is a network which is not transit free globally, but which maintains many of the classic behaviors and motivations of a Tier 1 network within a specific region.
A typical scenario for this behavior involves a network that was the incumbent telecommunications company in a specific country or region, usually tied to some level of government-supported monopoly. Within their specific countries or regions of origin, these networks maintain peering policies which mimic those of Tier 1 networks (such as lack of openness to new peering relationships and having existing peering with every other major network in that region). However, this network may then extend to another country, region, or continent outside of its core region of operations, where it may purchase transit or peer openly like a Tier 2 network.
A commonly cited example of these behaviors involves the incumbent carriers within Australia, who will not peer with new networks in Australia under any circumstances, but who will extend their networks to the United States and peer openly with many networks. Less extreme examples of much less restrictive peering requirements being set for regions in which a network peers, but does not sell services or have a significant market share, are relatively common among many networks, not just "regional Tier 1"s.
While the classification of "regional Tier 1" does hold some merit for understanding the peering motivations of such a network within different regions, these networks do not meet the requirements of a true global Tier 1 because they are not transit free globally.
 
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Where do you think they get their bandwidth from? Do you think they rolled out a global IP network stretching the globe peering with the real "Tier1" providers?

It's really not that hard to lease a few lambdas into the big exchange points. TENET does this...

If they were a Tier1 network you would not see your traffic exiting their AS when they reached london if your packets are destined for Canada as an example.

If a Tier 1 was by definition a 2-hop AS path then no one in the world would be one. It doesn't matter if the traffic exits their AS, that's a "nothing" statement.

The definition is on the grounds of settlement free peering, and no one can categorically state who pays and doesn't pay for what peering since it's highly confidential.

The local definition has fsckall to do with the definition of a Tier1 provider. And even their definition is false in what they state as they DO NOT own the layer 2 connectivity, they rent it via one of the consortium of owners of the cable.

You're very mistaken. The definition of network tier relates to IP transit NOT later 2 connectivity as you suggest.


Yes lets reference a Wikipedia article littered with "[citation needed]". It is sure to be correct!
 
I have come to the conclusion that you might work in the industry and picked up a few buzz words but you don't know what you are talking about.

"You're very mistaken. The definition of network tier relates to IP transit NOT later 2 connectivity as you suggest."

That was a side issue just to highlight how wrong their definitions are.

Did you not get the part about the mweb representative stating they get IP Transit via global carriers? All SA ISP's buy their traffic via IP Transit
 
From my understanding I think Telkom has the only Class A network in South Africa.
since they have a 41.*.*.*

Just going through the forums I noticed that Mweb, WebAfrica, AfriHost are from the same class, ie Class C.
Ok these are IP's of people's accounts:
Afrihost: 196.210.*.*
Mweb: 196.28.*.*
WebAfrica: 196.220*.*


Can someone maybe enlighten me?[/QUOTE]

I am on mweb and my IP starts with a 41.
 
Tier 2: A network that peers with some networks, but still purchases IP transit or pays settlements to reach at least some portion of the Internet.

Thank you :) that was my original conclusion :) before i got confused by people :(
 
Did you not get the part about the mweb representative stating they get IP Transit via global carriers? All SA ISP's buy their traffic via IP Transit

I'm not defending MWeb, they are not even a Tier 1 by "SA standards" (aka. A "Regional Tier 1").

The statement that there are no Tier 1 ISP's in SA is however not as black and white as you're making out. This is the grand debate about classifying Tier-1's - no one can prove who buys what from whom.

I know for a fact that TENET, MTN and IS buy L2 to LINX, AMS-IX and to the US and peers with a large number people there.

No one except them can state factually whether or not all of that peering is settlement free, and just because you might cross GBLX or AT&T to get to some ASN's doesn't mean that peering is charged. In the grand scheme of things, it's quite possible a very large amount of it is settlement free because A) most international INX encourage it, B) People want to peer with the emerging world and C) Our volumes are so trivial to them it's probably not worth billing an STM-1 peer when you're landing in excess of 600GBE in Dallas.

The only thing you can factually say is that in South Africa, they do not buy upstream transit of any sort, and they do not buy IP transit in order to leave the country either.

Mweb definitely does buy transit. Yes, they are wrong. No, you shouldn't confuse "wrong" with "evil" or "stupid", and it's such an obscure marketing tactic I doubt the ASA is going to care since no one regulates or can decide on the definition of Tier-1
 
What does one study to get into the design of these networks and Network engineering in general? Is it computer science ? Electrical Engineering? Network Engineering?
Please could one inform me as this stuff is extremely interesting and vast.
 
No one except them can state factually whether or not all of that peering is settlement free, and just because you might cross GBLX or AT&T to get to some ASN's doesn't mean that peering is charged. In the grand scheme of things, it's quite possible a very large amount of it is settlement free because A) most international INX encourage it, B) People want to peer with the emerging world and C) Our volumes are so trivial to them it's probably not worth billing an STM-1 peer when you're landing in excess of 600GBE in Dallas.

The only thing you can factually say is that in South Africa, they do not buy upstream transit of any sort, and they do not buy IP transit in order to leave the country either.

So they pay no ip transit fees? So they peer with the big Tier 1 carriers for free? Seriously, what are you smoking?

I'm not discussing this with you any further as you have lost the plot in all honesty. cda, you are correct. They are all Tier 1 ISPs and don't pay ip transit fees ;)

Your in for a rude awakening when you come to your senses though. G'night.
 
What does one study to get into the design of these networks and Network engineering in general? Is it computer science ? Electrical Engineering? Network Engineering?

Most of this is nothing you can study, it requires being exposed to the right things. Cisco certs are about the only non autodidact way.

If you've got lots of time and money you can push straight for a CCIE but no one will hire you without experience (and you require experience to pass it in fact). In general though a CCNP and further teaches you the operation of such networks. Designing them is another issue entirely.

Computer science and Engineering will teach you absolutely nothing, and can actually make you more ignorant to the facts of real world in my experience (I studied both).
 
So they pay no ip transit fees? So they peer with the big Tier 1 carriers for free?

Maybe, maybe not. As closed corporations they're not obliged to disclose who they pay for transit.

Last time I checked the BGP RIB on a route-server doesn't do invoicing as well.
 
What does one study to get into the design of these networks and Network engineering in general? Is it computer science ? Electrical Engineering? Network Engineering?
Please could one inform me as this stuff is extremely interesting and vast.

Depends on what you want to do. The top okes that work for the IETF, IEEE etc that set the standards etc are mostly from an electrical engineering background. I met one of them before, old grey beard but a real propeller head that knows his schit, CCIEs and the like consider these dudes gods. There are CS etc people involved as well. If you just want to work in the field designing WAN/LAN/VoIP infrastructure etc I would still advise formal qualification like B.Eng/B.Tech/B.Sc and then you can look into Cisco, Juniper for design & support etc certification or telco related stuff like ATM,SDH,SS7 etc which is also good to know in the networking field.
http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/index.html
 
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