How The Banks Will Control Bitcoin: Lighting Network

Sly21C

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Interesting, so here's a 9 minute well presented video about how Bitcoin might have been infiltrated by banks, through blockstream.

https://youtu.be/UYHFrf5ci_g

Forgive me, I don't know how to insert the video thingy :)


Below is a well researched (I think) article about how the lightning network will most probably require centralization because of channels and hubs. Meaning it's possible banks might own the hubs, and the possible end to decentralization.

The median Bitcoin (BTC) fee is $14.41*currently. This has gone parabolic in the past few days. So, let’s use a number before this parabolic rise, which was $3.80. Using this number, opening and closing a Lightning Network (LN) channel means that you will pay $7.60 in fees. Most likely, the fee will be much higher for two reasons:

BTC fees have been trending higher all year and will be higher by the time LN is ready

When you are in the shoe store or restaurant, you will likely pay a higher fee so that you are not waiting there for one or more hours for confirmation.

Let’s say hypothetically that Visa or Paypal charges $1 per transaction. This means that Alice and Carol would need to do 8 or more LN transactions, otherwise it would be cheaper to use Visa or Paypal.

But it gets worse. Visa doesn’t charge the customer. To you, Visa and Cash are free. You would have no economic incentive to use BTC and LN.

Also, Visa does not charge $1 per transaction. They charge 3%, which is 60 cents on a $20 widget. Let’s say that merchants discount their widget by 60 cents for non-Visa purchases, to pass the savings onto the customer. Nevertheless, no one is going to use BTC and LN to buy the widget unless 2 things happen:

they buy more than 13 widgets from the same store ($7.60 divided by 60 cents)

they know ahead of time that they will do this with that same store

This means that if you’re traveling, or want to tip content producers on the internet, you will likely not use BTC and LN. If you and your spouse want to try out a new restaurant, you will not use BTC and LN. If you buy shoes, you will not use BTC and LN...............

“Bitcoin’s Lightning Network Will Likely Fail Due To Several Possible Reasons” https://medium.com/@curt0/lightning...-due-to-several-possible-reasons-336c6c47f049

Seems like banks want to control Bitcoin. The other thing that happened was that 2 days ago I was banned from the r/Bitcoin Reddit page because I asked about blockstream and if hubs will be owned by banks. Maybe all this is true?
 
ARGUMENTS AGAINST NEED FOR LICENSING

Some have argued that LN does not transfer BTC until the channel is closed on the blockchain. This is not a defence, since channels will close on the blockchain.

Some have argued that LN nodes do not take ownership of funds. Is this really true? Is this argument based on a technicality or hoping for a loophole? It seems intuitive that a good prosecutor can easily defeat this argument. Even if this loophole exists, can we count on the government to never close this loophole?

So, will LN hubs and intermediary nodes need to be licensed as money transmitters? If so, then Bob, who is the intermediary between Alice and Carol, will need a license. But Bob won’t have the money nor qualifications. Money transmitters need to pay $25,000 to $1 million, maintain capital levels and are subject to KYC/AML regulations[1]. In which case, LN will have mainly large hubs, run by financial firms, such as banks and exchanges.

Will the banks want this? Likely. Will they lobby the government to get it? Likely.

Some may be wondering about miners. FinCEN has declared that miners are not money transmitters:

https://coincenter.org/entry/aml-kyc-tokens*:

“Subsequent administrative rulings clarified several remaining ambiguities: miners are not money transmitters…”

FinCEN Declares Bitcoin Miners, Investors Aren’t Money Transmitters

Some argue that LN nodes will go through Tor and be anonymous. For this to work, will all of the nodes connecting to it, need to run Tor? If so, then how likely will this happen and will all of these people need to run Tor on every device (laptop, phone and tablet)? Furthermore, everyone of these people will be need to be sufficiently tech savvy to download, install and set up Tor. Will the common person be able to do this? Also, will law-abiding nodes, such as retailers or banks, risk their own livelihood by connecting to an illegal node? What is the likelihood of this?

Some argue that unlicensed LN hubs can run in foreign countries. Not true. According to FinCEN: ““Money transmitting” occurs when funds are…transfers within the United States or to locations abroad…” Also, foreign companies are not immune from the laws of other countries which have extradition agreements. The U.S. government has sued European banks over the LIBOR scandal. The U.S. government has charged foreign banks for money laundering and two of those banks pleaded guilty. Furthermore, most countries have similar laws. It is no coincidence that European exchanges comply with KYC/AML.

Will licensed, regulated LN hubs connect to LN nodes behind Tor or in foreign countries? Unlikely. Will Amazon or eBay connect to LN nodes behind Tor or in foreign countries? Unlikely. If you want to buy from Amazon, you’ll likely need to register yourself at a licensed, regulated LN hub, which means you’ll need to provide your identification photo.

Say goodbye to a censorship-resistant, trust-less and permission-less coin.

For a preview of what LN will probably look like, look at Coinbase or other large exchanges. It’s a centralized, regulated and censored hub. Coinbase allows users to send to each other off-chain. Coinbase provides user data to the IRS and disallows users from certain countries to sell BTC. You need to trust that no rogue employee in the exchange will steal your funds, or that a bank will not confiscate your funds as banks did in Cyprus. What if the government provides a list of users, who are late with their tax returns, to Coinbase and tells Coinbase to block those users from making transactions? You need Coinbase’s permission.

This would be the antithesis of why Satoshi created Bitcoin.

“Bitcoin’s Lightning Network Will Likely Fail Due To Several Possible Reasons” https://medium.com/@curt0/lightning...-due-to-several-possible-reasons-336c6c47f049

More quotes from the same link or website.
 
Been saying that for months, banks will probably even create a blockchain Visa which will beat the transaction costs of bitcoin by far.
 
Considering buying into ripple for this reason - seems to have more support from the big boys

Just need to research whether they’re on the same chain as the ripple one can buy or whether the cos are starting their own fork so to speak
 
Been saying that for months, banks will probably even create a blockchain Visa which will beat the transaction costs of bitcoin by far.
I thought you were gonna say this is a conspiracy theory , when I saw your name.

What do you think about the below?

One of Blockstream’s investors/owners is AXA. AXA’s CEO and Chairman until 2016 was also the Chairman of Bilderberg Group. The Bilderberg Group is run by bankers and politicians (former prime ministers and nation leaders). According to GlobalResearch, Bilderberg Group wants “a One World Government (World Company) with a single, global marketplace…and financially regulated by one ‘World (Central) Bank’ using one global currency.” LN helps Bilderberg Group get one step closer to its goal.

Luke-Jr is one of the lead BTC developers in Core/Blockstream. Regulation of BTC is in-line with his beliefs. He is a big believer in the government, as he believes that the*government should tax you*and the*“State has authority from God”. In fact, he has other radical beliefs as well:

it is moral for the government to execute criminals and heretics (non-believers)

“Sun really orbits the Earth, not vice-versa.”

According to this*video, Luke-Jr was the only person to have ever carried out a 51% attack, to destroy a coin that he did not like.

So, having only large, regulated LN hubs is not a failure for Blockstream/Bilderberg. It’s a success. The title of this article should be changed to:*“Lightning Will Fail Or Succeed, Depending On Whether You Are Satoshi Or Blockstream/Bilderberg”.

“Bitcoin’s Lightning Network Will Likely Fail Due To Several Possible Reasons” https://medium.com/@curt0/lightning...-due-to-several-possible-reasons-336c6c47f049
 
Considering buying into ripple for this reason - seems to have more support from the big boys

Just need to research whether they’re on the same chain as the ripple one can buy or whether the cos are starting their own fork so to speak
After finding out about the possible future centralization of Bitcoin, Ripple doesn't seem so bad at all. Ripple, at least, is honest upfront that they are a bank to bank settlement mechanism via the blockchain.
 
I thought you were gonna say this is a conspiracy theory , when I saw your name.

What do you think about the below?



“Bitcoin’s Lightning Network Will Likely Fail Due To Several Possible Reasons” https://medium.com/@curt0/lightning...-due-to-several-possible-reasons-336c6c47f049

I was actually at high school with one of de Castries’ daughters.

I don’t believe in independently developed bitcoin, for security, reliability and liabilities reasons.

If you had a choice between a secured, cheap and insured transaction and a “in theory” secured, cheap and non-insured transaction, what would you choose ?

I absolutely don’t believe there will be one exchange or market place, groups of big banks and investors diverge a lot.
 
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After finding out about the possible future centralization of Bitcoin, Ripple doesn't seem so bad at all. Ripple, at least, is honest upfront that they are a bank to bank settlement mechanism via the blockchain.
Don’t really care about decentralized or not. Just care about backing whatever horse visa, Wall Street and co are likely to ride. It’ll clearly be some form of Blockchain but don’t think it’ll be mainstream like bitcoin - they’ll want something less eccentric. Ripple seems to fit the bill
 
I was actually at high school with one of de Castries’ daughters.

I don’t believe in independently developed bitcoin, for security, reliability and liabilities reasons.

If you had a choice between a secured, cheap and insured transaction and a “in theory” secured, cheap and non-insured transaction, what would you choose ?

I absolutely don’t believe there will be one exchange or market place, groups of big banks and investors diverge a lot.

Who is de Castrie?

I'd 100% choose the second option, the secured, cheap and non-insured. I'm not sure why you chose to insert the term "in-theory", because Bitcoin has been proven that it works. There's no double spending and transactions are irreversible (unfortunately or fortunately). You control your own private keys, meaning you are in charge of your own money.

The important thing with the Bitcoin blockchain is that it is currently censorship resistant, meaning no one can censor my transaction because they don't like me. Having centralized transactions through these hubs owned by banks (doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100 banks) is extremely dangerous for freedom, because they can always go to a conference and decide on regulations. These regulations might be that all channels (assuming we're using the lightning network) to and from Sly21C must not be accepted because he's ugly.
 
Don’t really care about decentralized or not. Just care about backing whatever horse visa, Wall Street and co are likely to ride. It’ll clearly be some form of Blockchain but don’t think it’ll be mainstream like bitcoin - they’ll want something less eccentric. Ripple seems to fit the bill

so they solved the electricity issue then?
 
Who is de Castrie?

I'd 100% choose the second option, the secured, cheap and non-insured. I'm not sure why you chose to insert the term "in-theory", because Bitcoin has been proven that it works. There's no double spending and transactions are irreversible (unfortunately or fortunately). You control your own private keys, meaning you are in charge of your own money.

The important thing with the Bitcoin blockchain is that it is currently censorship resistant, meaning no one can censor my transaction because they don't like me. Having centralized transactions through these hubs owned by banks (doesn't matter if it's 1 or 100 banks) is extremely dangerous for freedom, because they can always go to a conference and decide on regulations. These regulations might be that all channels (assuming we're using the lightning network) to and from Sly21C must not be accepted because he's ugly.

He was the chairman and CEO of AXA for 16 years, and mentor of the current CEO.

It’s proven that it works except that it’s slow, expensive and wallets get stolen often (and you’re not insured).

I’d rather have the banks with defined commercial interests and subject to government regulations control how money flows and the ability to go to court than having 10 unknown guys who created the bitcoin and might have an unknown backdoor, a hidden agenda or just be nutjobs.

The regulations that Sly is out of the system because ugly would be overruled by courts.

Illustration on mybb right now: Luno password locked
https://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=927602
 
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Don’t really care about decentralized or not. Just care about backing whatever horse visa, Wall Street and co are likely to ride. It’ll clearly be some form of Blockchain but don’t think it’ll be mainstream like bitcoin - they’ll want something less eccentric. Ripple seems to fit the bill

+1
 
so they solved the electricity issue then?
That’s pretty much just Bitcoin. Don’t think the other coins have much elec footprint (yet)

And ripple I’d imagine has near zero since it seems somewhat centralized anyway
 
He was the chairman and CEO of AXA for 16 years, and mentor of the current CEO. .

Doesn't mean that I trust him, because I don't. No offense :). He might have an agenda which might not benefit the community, because blockstream haven't increased block sizes which have resulted in slow transactions and high fees. And them (Bitcoin devs) banning people from their Reddit group doesn't inspire confidence.

It's proven that it works except that it’s slow, expensive and wallets get stolen often (and you’re not insured).

Wallets getting stolen is because owners of those wallets are either negligent, or don't protect their private keys adequately. I've yet to hear of someone I know personally getting money in their bank account stolen, because people have learned to guard their accounts. The same thing is happening in crypto, because are getting better and better.

f2wohf;20878508It’s said:
I’d rather have the banks with defined commercial interests and subject to government regulations control how money flows and the ability to go to court than having 10 unknown guys who created the bitcoin and might have an unknown backdoor, a hidden agenda or just be nutjobs.

The regulations that Sly is out of the system because ugly would be overruled by courts.

I strongly dislike centralization, because you're at the messy of people that control the centralized entity.

Take me for example, I was a member of the r/Bitcoin Reddit group since July this year. I made countless posts about almost anything. There was even one post whereby I went off topic, but I wasn't given a warning or anything. And then 2 says ago all of a sudden, I made a comment to one topic asking about blockstream and if aren't hubs dangerous because they'll be centralized possibly. I was banned a few hours later. I asked why I was banned, no response. So now I must go to court, hire a lawyer, spend time arguing my case until I get unbanned? I don't think so. Centralization is dangerous IMHO, and I am 100% against any form of centralization.

If there's a backdoor code made by people with agendas, that's fine. If the code is open source, all I'll do is research by finding someone who can comment about a code. If too many people genuinely comment that a code isn't good, then I'll use another coin. At least there's flow of information. But blockstream and their censorship tactics means banks will do the same.

Courts are made up of people, and people can always be corrupted. So courts aren't full proof.
 
Honestly, that’s a philosophical matter and don’t agree on it.

I’m definitely not of the same view but can understand yours.

I’m not a bank lover but consider them as a necessary evil so far (as plenty of other things in life).
 
Honestly, that’s a philosophical matter and don’t agree on it.

I’m definitely not of the same view but can understand yours.

I’m not a bank lover but consider them as a necessary evil so far (as plenty of other things in life).
Yeah, we'll all have our preferences.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you get into crypto? I think there are, generally speaking, 2 types of people in crypto. 1)Those that want to make money, and 2) those that love how blockchain bypasses centralized banks, & love technologies behind cryptocurrency coins and tokens. Which one are you?

I'm asking because if you prefer centralized authorities, then the current fiat based banking system should work 100% for you?
 
Yeah, we'll all have our preferences.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you get into crypto? I think there are, generally speaking, 2 types of people in crypto. 1)Those that want to make money, and 2) those that love how blockchain bypasses centralized banks, & love technologies behind cryptocurrency coins and tokens. Which one are you?

I'm asking because if you prefer centralized authorities, then the current fiat based banking system should work 100% for you?

I’m not into crypto at all, I don’t have any.

I’m just watching it with interest and find the block chain technology interesting.

I don’t believe that non governmental new currencies will take over existing currencies, but rather that existing currencies will adopt block chain technology.

I’m not fond of fiat currencies either, I much prefer the gold standard. P
 
It's why 97% of my crypto has been in Ripple since it was $0.13. It's the only one that actually has buy-in from more and more banks (incl SA), a real-world use, and a low enough transaction cost to make serious inroads into SWIFT.
 
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It's why 97% of my crypto has been in Ripple since it was $0.13. It's the only one that actually has buy-in from more and more banks (incl SA), a real-world use, and a low enough transaction cost to make serious inroads into SWIFT.
You must be smiling all the way to the bank . Ripple definitely has a real world use case. If Bitcoin Cash and other cryptos don't resolve scaling issues, then Ripple will benefit hugely.
 
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