How Western Civilisation Could Collapse (BBC)

[Cius]

Equilibrium is not ideal, even if the experience is ideal. Advancement and adaptation can only come from chaos.

Not necessarily. Development is driven by need and a lack of something. A good book to read is one called "Abundance". It talks about how every time mankind hits a shortage of something we put our attention on the problem and what was a deficit becomes an abundance. Think about advances we have made to transportation speed, internet data speed and costs, etc in the last few decades. The energy problem is next and within 50 years we will probably by electricity the way we buy uncapped internet. You will pay for the size of the pipe perhaps and daytime energy will largely be free with your cap being used up in night-time spending.

When I say equilibrium I do not mean stopping progress, I mean birth-rate equilibrium and net zero in terms of food produced vs consumed, energy used, and resources consumed. Any economic growth would then have to be driven not by birth rate but by increase in workforce efficiency, technological advancement, and education enhancement. As I said, many Nordic countries are already aiming for this state of "equilibrium" and some are getting close to achieving it. Countries also would have to be carbon neutral.

 

[Unhappy1]

Yet they do have an option: don't get pregnant.

Realistically that isnt an option, people are going to have sex full stop.

Using birth control and/or abortion is a personal choice though,

Correct, except in many places it isnt.

the latter is not for me, but I'm not about to tell others what they get to decide, as long as they take full responsibility and don't come begging at my door to fund ANY of their decisions.

Begging at your door? You mean how your tax money is used? Well if you're half switched on then you will want it to be used in the most cost effective manner.

Back on topic though, the OP is not about partisan / factional / religious issues. The world is guaranteed to run out of enough resources to sustain life for this many people eventually, what happens then?

Actually it is about that as well but ultimately people have been saying this sort of thing for a long time now. Oil has been running out for how long now? The world invents shale and we have too much oil. We didn't have enough farmland for our food requirements until we developed better strains of plants that provided more. Innovation is often the key.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Instead of rewarding the impoverished people to multiply and get themselves into deeper financial sht, rather lighten the burden

Sure, you say that now, but when people start handing out smallpox infected blankets to the poor to "lighten the burden" suddenly the damn SJW's cry foul ...

 

[Unhappy1]

Sure, you say that now, but when people start handing out smallpox infected blankets to the poor to "lighten the burden" suddenly the damn SJW's cry foul ...

Its all fun and games until youre given that blanket.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Begging at your door? You mean how your tax money is used? Well if you're half switched on then you will want it to be used in the most cost effective manner

Indeed, and however unpalatable you may find it, the most cost effective manner is to let the law of the jungle solve the problem, permanently and cheaply.

 

[Unhappy1]

Indeed, and however unpalatable you may find it, the most cost effective manner is to let the law of the jungle solve the problem, permanently and cheaply.

Careful what you wish for, statistics on that wont be favorable towards you and its quite likely you will be dragged into it all.

 

[hoenner69]

How about all the privately owned companies refrain from paying the tax part of your salary to Sars, create a SAMonitary Fund, managed by Allan Grey/Coronation/Liberty/or similar. Then that money is used for building desalination plants along the coast, fixing the millions of potholes, a few solar farms, upgrading hospitals, etc. Then you will actually feel your money going into something important rather than being wasted on golden handshakes and pissing it out against the wall at sabc, eskom, transnet, etc. SABC had a R411m loss last year and the guy recons it's a SOE, it doesn't need to make money. Without matric it's easy to assume that he doesn't even have the most basic skills or knowledge to run a tuckshop, nevermind a massive state owned enterprise.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Careful what you wish for, statistics on that wont be favorable towards you and its quite likely you will be dragged into it all.

Oh I have no illusions about being guaranteed a place among the survivors, but objectively speaking the only real solution is to go colonize space, or drastically reduce the world population by letting the weak die and then worrying about how we further cull the herd if that still isn't enough.

My individual fate does not change the fact that we have very limited options.

 

[Garson007]

Not necessarily. Development is driven by need and a lack of something. A good book to read is one called "Abundance".

Bought that for my father some years ago, have yet to read it.

It talks about how every time mankind hits a shortage of something we put our attention on the problem and what was a deficit becomes an abundance.

This only happens due to the chaos of the free market. Any type of controlled economy would not achieve this.

When I say equilibrium I do not mean stopping progress, I mean birth-rate equilibrium and net zero in terms of food produced vs consumed, energy used, and resources consumed. Any economic growth would then have to be driven not by birth rate but by increase in workforce efficiency, technological advancement, and education enhancement. As I said, many Nordic countries are already aiming for this state of "equilibrium" and some are getting close to achieving it. Countries also would have to be carbon neutral.

All I'm reading is state interference in the natural occurring free market, placing a damper on it for nonsensical causes like carbon neutrality.

 

[Unhappy1]

Oh I have no illusions about being guaranteed a place among the survivors, but objectively speaking the only real solution is to go colonize space, or drastically reduce the world population by letting the weak die and then worrying about how we further cull the herd if that still isn't enough.

My individual fate does not change the fact that we have very limited options.

Fair enough then.

 

[saturnz]

we are living in the collapse

 

[Batista]

Even better, reversible vasectomy rather than sterilization. If you get a stable job and decide you are ready for that huge financial burden they call children, you can reverse it and have kids.

[video=youtube;ox0iKsXKLjw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0iKsXKLjw[/video]

 

[rietrot]

we are living in the collapse

This might be one of the downturns or periods of change. Collapse is a bit strong. It's normal it happens every few years and more seriously every thew decades.

 

[Garson007]

we are living in the collapse

Fourth turning, etc, etc.

Let's just colonize space before **** really goes down.

 

[rietrot]

Well, don't worry. Thanks to advances in technology, the entire economy is about to hit a point where nobody can afford to get a job making the useless crud everybody buys to keep world consumption going.

So the very notion of trying to build prosperity through consumption is about to enter the pages of history. Hopefully humanity will survive to write its epitaph.

I don't see us hitting that point any harder than past depressions.
The market will stop/slow the advances in technology when it becomes cheaper to just employ people again. eg. We already have technology that can replace lots of mining jobs, petrol attendants, we don't need them, car guards, there's absolutely no reason to have a car guard for every parking lot and even places with controlled access, employing technology still have manual car guards.
Consumption is great, I don't consider us to be anywhere near the peak of what resources we have available or the max capacity of people that the earth can take. But I do think consumerism mixed with easy credit created an awesome bubble that will pop spectacularly.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Anybody with any sense knows that to prevent collapse the solution is population management, via drugs, controled birth or a pathogen that alters fertility in both sexes.

It is the only solution that offers relief from almost every social issue we face currently and any future economic crisis regarding resources.

 

[rietrot]

Anybody with any sense knows that to prevent collapse the solution is population management, via drugs, controled birth or a pathogen that alters fertility in both sexes.

It is the only solution that offers relief from almost every social issue we face currently and any future economic crisis regarding resources.

This would be a valid argument if we had too much people but we don't.

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/overpopulation-the-making-of-a-myth
A source from a quick google. An entire website just for busting that myth. Someone really interested should obviously do a bit more research on their own.

 

[The_Assimilator]

The market will stop/slow the advances in technology when it becomes cheaper to just employ people again.

That is literally never going to happen, unless slavery is reintroduced. Technology always obsoletes human jobs and always persists because it is more reliable. The trick is to embrace technology to create new jobs that the displaced can do, not fight it fruitlessly.

 

[Nanfeishen]

This would be a valid argument if we had too much people but we don't.

https://overpopulationisamyth.com/overpopulation-the-making-of-a-myth
A source from a quick google. An entire website just for busting that myth. Someone really interested should obviously do a bit more research on their own.

You are promoting a myth and a far more dangerous one at that, if you think overpopulation isnt a serious issue.

World’s top problem is overpopulation, not climate
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/climate-report-proves-humans-are-the-new-dinosaurs-2013-10-12

The perennial cry: we need to talk about climate change. And this week, with world leaders in Paris, we have been. But only up to a point. For the likely impact of the rising global population is almost entirely absent, not only from the debate about climate change, but also from that about loss of biological diversity, food and water security, disease, pollution and energy.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/04/climate-change-population-crisis-paris-summit

Of all of the environmental challenges facing the planet today overpopulation is one that sometimes slips under the radar. Issues like pollution, climate change and water shortages all seem to take precedence, but overpopulation is one of the main contributors to many other environmental issues.

http://www.renewableresourcescoalition.org/overpopulation-causes-effects-solutions/

Overpopulation remains the leading driver of hunger, desertification, species depletion and a range of social maladies across the planet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-tal/overpopulation-is-still-t_b_3990646.html

Climate change and global pollution cannot be adequately tackled without addressing the neglected issue of the world's booming population, according to two leading scientists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/overpopulation-is-main-threat-to-planet-521925.html

Pay attention to the bolded bits and digest them.

Overpopulation is seldom or never discussed in regards to global issues because it is an issue that neither governments nor scientists wish to or want to address, nor an issue they want to face , so they simply sweep it under the carpet or ignore it.

Population control of any sort immediately conjures images of negativity and revulsion, and any attempt at implementation would be shouted down with all sorts of emotional arguments.

The simple reality is we are moving out of the emotional range and into the range where logic and reasoning have to be applied to ensure the safety and security of the planet and its resources, and to ensure that our blatant overconsumption is halted and decreased to sustainable levels.

 

[Thor]

/looks at ANC government