hydro electricity

[Gordon_R]

South Africa has one of the longest coastlines in the world.

Why can't sea currents or waves be used to generate power?

Wave power has advatages and disadvantages like everything else. There are no successful large scale facilities anywhere in the world. Some reading:

Various Advantages and Disadvantages of Wave Energy - Conserve Energy Future

Wave energy is as source of power that comes from the endless march of the waves as they roll into the shore then back out again. Energy that comes from the waves in the ocean sounds like a boundless, harmless supply

www.conserve-energy-future.com

 

[itareanlnotani]

I think you missed the point of my post in response to the OP completely (and are trying to teach an Eskimo about ice). South Africa is a water scarce country, and if all its water were used for hydroelectric, we would still fall short. Pumped storage (which I understand completely) is a different story, and is only useful for load balancing, not primary energy generation. P.S. Look at the list of hydro capacity in the article I linked earlier.

Edit: If you want to read actual data about hydro versus thermal, try this: https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1427501

Is there no places left in sa to build hydro electrical plants that can make a difference and not destroy the ecosystem surround.Also how long does it take to build such a system.Why cant some of the dams here be retrofitted .

If you are replying to him, then why go on a tangent?

As for his questions - I think I answered them well enough. That first link I quoted lists a number of good potential additional pumped storage locations


Pasting again below:
Overview of pumped storage and Hydro in SA (excellent read, suggest you go through it)
https://www.ee.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/B-Barta-Energy-and-Water-Resources-Engineering.pdf

We have potential for at least another 3-4GW of pumped storage and hydro. Probably more, I'd suggest as much as 7GW having looked through prior literature on the subject.

If we include micro and mini storage, that can probably be upped another 1GW.

These are things that could be done now, but REIPPP is mostly focused on coal, coal and more coal, and nuclear, with a handful of generation begrudgingly given to Solar and Wind. None given to CSP in the last few REIPPP's.

The government is the one with the hands on the brakes here. If Mantashe was kicked out, and more sane minister involved, we could have more REIPPP's fast, imagine if the government had RFP's every 6 months, and went ahead every year. Instead we're sitting with 4-5 year REIPP's, and those are full of corruption.

The last REIPPP's had coal, and no-one bit. Just isn't worth it anymore (unless you're an ANC skelm hairdresser).

I digress though.

Back to topic, there is plenty more potential in existing sites that have had studies done, and have been identified, and had plans drawn up. Just getting those done would add 3-4GW of additional on demand generation to our grid.

The government is the issue here. Cheap finance is readily available too.

 

[maumau]

i know about the bromate formation those black balls,i call them anti evaporation balls, and also i know they are filled with water at the factory.You nogal lekker rude in your reply but thats ok cause i forgive you.If one dont ask questions how is he suppose to get opinions and answers.

Maybe you giving kAK advice.

HUH?

 

[Gordon_R]

As usual posters like you double down on the stupidity...

• What YOU call the balls are of zero consequence and has no bearing on the lack of facts in your OP.
• The balls are not filled with water at the factory...are you kidding?!?! It is the process of manufacturing those balls, that use the water.
• I suggest following my "kak" advice and doing better research.

I tried putting the OP on my ignore list, but kept getting responses to my posts from other forum members. Best to post simple facts and links, than to try and argue with a troll...

 

[maumau]

Is there no places left in sa to build hydro electrical plants that can make a difference and not destroy the ecosystem surround.Also how long does it take to build such a system.Why cant some of the dams here be retrofitted .

Some countries are suited to hydro, others to solar.

ZA = solar

 

[wingnut771]

If you are replying to him, then why go on a tangent?

As for his questions - I think I answered them well enough. That first link I quoted lists a number of good potential additional pumped storage locations


Pasting again below:
Overview of pumped storage and Hydro in SA (excellent read, suggest you go through it)
https://www.ee.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/B-Barta-Energy-and-Water-Resources-Engineering.pdf

We have potential for at least another 3-4GW of pumped storage and hydro. Probably more, I'd suggest as much as 7GW having looked through prior literature on the subject.

If we include micro and mini storage, that can probably be upped another 1GW.

These are things that could be done now, but REIPPP is mostly focused on coal, coal and more coal, and nuclear, with a handful of generation begrudgingly given to Solar and Wind. None given to CSP in the last few REIPPP's.

The government is the one with the hands on the brakes here. If Mantashe was kicked out, and more sane minister involved, we could have more REIPPP's fast, imagine if the government had RFP's every 6 months, and went ahead every year. Instead we're sitting with 4-5 year REIPP's, and those are full of corruption.

The last REIPPP's had coal, and no-one bit. Just isn't worth it anymore (unless you're an ANC skelm hairdresser).

I digress though.

Back to topic, there is plenty more potential in existing sites that have had studies done, and have been identified, and had plans drawn up. Just getting those done would add 3-4GW of additional on demand generation to our grid.

The government is the issue here. Cheap finance is readily available too.

How do you pump 7GW of pumped storage back overnight when all the coal power stations are gone?

 

[Gordon_R]

If you are replying to him, then why go on a tangent?

As for his questions - I think I answered them well enough. That first link I quoted lists a number of good potential additional pumped storage locations


Pasting again below:
Overview of pumped storage and Hydro in SA (excellent read, suggest you go through it)
https://www.ee.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/B-Barta-Energy-and-Water-Resources-Engineering.pdf

We have potential for at least another 3-4GW of pumped storage and hydro. Probably more, I'd suggest as much as 7GW having looked through prior literature on the subject.

If we include micro and mini storage, that can probably be upped another 1GW.

These are things that could be done now, but REIPPP is mostly focused on coal, coal and more coal, and nuclear, with a handful of generation begrudgingly given to Solar and Wind. None given to CSP in the last few REIPPP's.

The government is the one with the hands on the brakes here. If Mantashe was kicked out, and more sane minister involved, we could have more REIPPP's fast, imagine if the government had RFP's every 6 months, and went ahead every year. Instead we're sitting with 4-5 year REIPP's, and those are full of corruption.

The last REIPPP's had coal, and no-one bit. Just isn't worth it anymore (unless you're an ANC skelm hairdresser).

I digress though.

Back to topic, there is plenty more potential in existing sites that have had studies done, and have been identified, and had plans drawn up. Just getting those done would add 3-4GW of additional on demand generation to our grid.

The government is the issue here. Cheap finance is readily available too.

Well, if you had read the very first link I posted, there is an entry for a large scheme in Limpopo which has been put on hold:

Province Coordinates Installed capacity (planned) (Megawatt) Date commissioned (planned) Operator Notes
Tubatse Pumped Storage Scheme Limpopo (Roossenekal) 25°07′51″S 29°49′24″E 1500 (?) Eskom Project on hold Previously called Project Lima

Lumping hydro with pumped storage just confuses the issue, as I have repeatedly stated.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Well, if you had read the very first link I posted, there is an entry for a large scheme in Limpopo which has been put on hold:


Lumping hydro with pumped storage just confuses the issue, as I have repeatedly stated.

By definition - All pumped storage is hydropower
Not all hydro has pumped storage though.

Or as we say in set theory injective, but not surjective.

Lumping it together isn't confusing the issue.

BTW - Let's also not forget the massive amount of potential in Lesotho.

Anyhow, plenty of pumped storage, *and* plenty of hydro capability in SA should we actually have the government to do it.

 

[itareanlnotani]

What do you do during the drought years when there is no water?

You have bigger issues than electricity at that point.

Our hydro feeds our water supply.

I would suggest instead of wasting trillions of tons of water yearly (literally!) on coal, we could instead use more renewables, and more hydro, and more pumped storage.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Some countries are suited to hydro, others to solar.

ZA = solar

Wind, and Solar are definitely the go to for SA. We have been blessed with both superb wind, and superb solar capabilities.

Battery, for short term storage (i.e. the few seconds it takes to start up hydro or pumped storage).
Hydro, and its sister pumped storage are still the cheapest form of mass storage.
We need more generation, but we also need more storage.

 

[wingnut771]

You have bigger issues than electricity at that point.

Our hydro feeds our water supply.

I would suggest instead of wasting trillions of tons of water yearly (literally!) on coal, we could instead use more renewables, and more hydro, and more pumped storage.

I would love to see floating pv on our dams (to reduce evaporation) storing energy underwater using compressed air that can be released at night. No need to build new schemes and have more environment impact but rather retrofit our existing storage schemes.

 

[itareanlnotani]

I would love to see floating pv on our dams (to reduce evaporation) storing energy underwater using compressed air that can be released at night. No need to build new schemes and have more environment impact but rather retrofit our existing storage schemes.

Cape Town was trialing a very small scale version recently.
There was a thread on it before here.

Floating PV tested at water treatment plant in South Africa

The pilot system was built with the Hydrelio floating platforms developed by French specialist Ciel&Terre. The project performance will be evaluated during a full seasonal weather cycle.

www.pv-magazine.com

We do have covered dam's already btw (although covered in concrete, not solar!)

I agree about retrofit - some of our existing hydro has capacity for higher output by upgrading equipment, which could be done relatively easily, and cheaply.

 

[wingnut771]

Cape Town was trialing a very small scale version recently.
There was a thread on it before here.

Floating PV tested at water treatment plant in South Africa

The pilot system was built with the Hydrelio floating platforms developed by French specialist Ciel&Terre. The project performance will be evaluated during a full seasonal weather cycle.

www.pv-magazine.com

We do have covered dam's already btw (although covered in concrete, not solar!)

Yes I remember. Not sure what needs trialing though.

How do you cover the vaal dam in concrete? Which dams are these?

 

[itareanlnotani]

Yes I remember. Not sure what needs trialing though.

How do you cover the vaal dam in concrete? Which dams are these?

How does cooling affect solar output in our sun conditions.
How does the coverage affect the evaporation
What are the downfalls of power and water cabling in a real life situation.
Does it make financial sense to do so in a South African environment

etc etc

Yes, they have been done elsewhere, and successfully I might add. I'm currently not that far as the crow flies from some of the ones mentioned here -

Thailand’s 'largest' floating solar project comes online

A 58.5MW floating PV plant in Thailand, said to be the largest install of its kind in the country, has been connected to the grid, according to inverter and floating solutions supplier Sungrow.

www.pv-tech.org

Note the timing - From project award to commercial operation - in a year.

Again, our government is the holdback here, although now up to 100MW plants can be implemented for self consumption, I suspect we'll start to see more of this as farmers and other power users with suitable locations take advantage...


We have some reservoirs which are covered. Dam's not so much.
Solar > balls though, as the balls blow away.

 

[Gordon_R]

Yes I remember. Not sure what needs trialing though.

How do you cover the vaal dam in concrete? Which dams are these?

The only dams that are covered in concrete are the small ones closest to the consumer. This cuts down on filtration and treatment costs, when the inevitable "pigeon poop' gets into the water.

 

[wingnut771]

Yeah those are not dams in my mind but reservoirs, some thing you can take a boat on and go skiing is a dam. Anyway, it seems we are talking past each other. I say the tech doesn’t need testing, you say it does. Let’s just agree to disagree. I wish I was in charge, it would have been done already.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Yeah those are not dams in my mind but reservoirs, some thing you can take a boat on and go skiing is a dam. Anyway, it seems we are talking past each other. I say the tech doesn’t need testing, you say it does. Let’s just agree to disagree. I wish I was in charge, it would have been done already.

Hydro + solar or pumped storage + solar make sense.

Benefits;
Lower evaporation rates for water
Cooling for panels so increased production
Existing large scale transmission infrastructure
Pumped storage or hydro can be used as intended, as solar generation will allow for offsetting misuse of hydro and pumped storage as "base load".

Downsides:
Mantashe and buddies don't cream as much off the top selling coal and diesel (really this is a net positive).
Any Costs over traditional Solar Installations (I''m not sure what the differential is here, it might be minimal).

It's a win/win.

 

[wingnut771]

Hydro + solar or pumped storage + solar make sense.

Benefits;
Lower evaporation rates for water
Cooling for panels so increased production
Existing large scale transmission infrastructure
Pumped storage or hydro can be used as intended, as solar generation will allow for offsetting misuse of hydro and pumped storage as "base load".

Downsides:
Mantashe and buddies don't cream as much off the top selling coal and diesel (really this is a net positive).
Any Costs over traditional Solar Installations (I''m not sure what the differential is here, it might be minimal).

It's a win/win.

The only problem with dams is they're State owned and we all know who the State is.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Overview of potential upgrades at Steenbras, and other sites in Cape Town.

The TLDR here is that the costs are not that high, and it's doable. Will also lead to increased capacity, especially at Steenbras;

By synchronising and refurbishing the generator equipment it would be possible to double the electric output of the plant and by re-sizing and replacing the turbine, a further 1.7 GWh can be generated

https://carbonn.org/uploads/tx_carbonndata/Micro-hydro%20Bulk%20Water%20Prefeasibility%20Report_01.pdf

 

[itareanlnotani]

How do you pump 7GW of pumped storage back overnight when all the coal power stations are gone?

I already covered this.
- By not misusing pumped storage as baseload.

Use solar excess to pump in the day, use the pumped storage for the evening duck curve, then recharge again in the day time.

Would need a lot more solar to be installed, which a sane government would get right onto.