<moLe>
Expert Member
$ apt-get install IE8?
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IE8 not forced on Windows 7 users
- Thread starter rpm
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Net Performance
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Soon, we will sue Google because when you land at google.com you can't use another search engine...
You havent really thought this through have you. Tell me, what application that came bundled with your OS ENABLED you to download Firefox. Give you a hint. Starts with an I and ends with an E. Truth be told is MS didnt bundle IE, these other browsers wouldnt even feature, simply because the average user wouldnt be able to connect to the web.
You got 3 scenarios:
1: IE Preinstalled, New User. Out the box he can browse the web.
2: IE Preinstalled, Fanboy User. Out the box uses IE to download FF.
3: No IE. User is totally stuffed cause he cant download *****.
Now you prolly gonna start saying things like, but the options should be made available. Bollocks. What company on earth would promote their competitors product.
I.E. Provides these options.
What about offline HTML help files that a lot of software comes with. You are now FORCING the user to connect to the net and download a client in order to use some application that could very well be bundled with the OS.
What about a system administrator that now you are FORCING to do extra work to setup hos network with functioning PC's.
Truth be told I have NEVER heard of free tools having a disabling effect on the user.
My feeling is that the web browser is not the most complicated piece of software in the world. Infact it is pretty basic. And truth be told as far as functionality goes there is no REAL FUNCTIONAL difference between browsers. They browse the net. What the anti IE peeps get all worked up about is actually the end users laziness to go and install another piece of software. Cause lets face it, there is very little difference between all of them.
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porchrat
Honorary Master
The problem is that IE is forced on you. You can't click the "windows update" icon without it opening IE. This is I know not a big point, but still a valid one.
Why shouldn't the user be able to decide whether or not they want to completely remove IE? It is after all your computer.
With this new option to remove IE all you can do is remove it from the GUI. The underlying program is still there, it is just hidden (in much the same way as you could "uninstall" Outlook on XP). Whether it is an inconvenience or not, why does it have to remain there?!?
Again surely the point isn't that IE shouldn't come with Windows, but that the user should have the option (should they wish to) to remove IE entirely. Currently this option doesn't exist. Even in Windows7.
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killadoob
Honorary Master
Do you know how many websites out there cannot be viewed nicely with firefox? IE is not forced on us and yes you have to use it with windows update but in vista and windows 7 you do not, windows xp is now 8 years old and tired.
IE is really not a big thing, i use internet explorer to download firefox with when i install os's.
I dunno what this fuss is about with IE, its a flippin internet browser that does exactly what firefox does. Why would windows come without a broswer?
Maybe windows should come without a broswer, no media player no notepad, no calc.
why do not remove every single useful program off windows
, i dunno i find that slightly idiotic.
IE is really not a big thing, i use internet explorer to download firefox with when i install os's.
I dunno what this fuss is about with IE, its a flippin internet browser that does exactly what firefox does. Why would windows come without a broswer?
Maybe windows should come without a broswer, no media player no notepad, no calc.
why do not remove every single useful program off windows
, i dunno i find that slightly idiotic.
porchrat
Honorary Master
Do you know how many websites out there cannot be viewed nicely with firefox? IE is not forced on us and yes you have to use it with windows update but in vista and windows 7 you do not, windows xp is now 8 years old and tired.
IE is really not a big thing, i use internet explorer to download firefox with when i install os's.
I dunno what this fuss is about with IE, its a flippin internet browser that does exactly what firefox does. Why would windows come without a broswer?
Maybe windows should come without a broswer, no media player no notepad, no calc.
why do not remove every single useful program off windows
I'm not saying don't ship Windows with IE. I use IE to download Firefox whenever I install a new version of Windows so it definitely is a necessary program initially. However I have never encountered a website that is completely unreadable in Firefox, I'm sure they exist, but I don't think they exist in overwhelming numbers. What I am saying is (concentrate now because you obviously didn't read this part before) WHY CAN'T I REMOVE IT COMPLETELY IF I WANT TO?
Why must the binaries hang around underneath the GUI? I can completely remove Firefox if I so desire, therefore why, in the name of all that is good and sweet in Odin's beard, can't I remove IE!
Simple.
Basically it is a component of the OS to support things like offline/online help that a lot of apps use. And being part of the OS, it would be stupid to allow a third party of whose quality controls you are not aware of to replace a critical component of the OS. If a users installed browser component tanks or is not present, then the user automatically blames the OS. Since as you just pointed out in the case of yourself you dont know what is web component and what is app. It gives apps a common demonimator. The IE renderer is a shared component that is used by many applications, including windows explorer itself.
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killadoob
Honorary Master
Nice one slappy 
Does it bug you at night that internet explorer sits on your pc? what bugs you about internet explorer being installed? Does it eat up resources or does the 30 meg folder consume to much of your 500gb hdd? i mean why do you need to uninstall it so badly?
What are the reasons for needing so badly to remove internet explorer from your windows OS?
Does it bug you at night that internet explorer sits on your pc? what bugs you about internet explorer being installed? Does it eat up resources or does the 30 meg folder consume to much of your 500gb hdd? i mean why do you need to uninstall it so badly?
What are the reasons for needing so badly to remove internet explorer from your windows OS?
porchrat
Honorary Master
Then leave Trident on and remove the IE components.
<moLe>
Expert Member
fck me, but you guys can moan about ****, if you dnt fcking like IE, then dont use MS products...its as simple as that. There is fcking tons of other free alternatives
killadoob
Honorary Master
Mole there is nothing worse than an agressive linux fanboi, shame man does using linux make you that angry?
Don't worry mole one day your linux will rival windows but for now your stucking swearing on net
/smacks mole upside the head with internet explorer, relax noobcake.
Don't worry mole one day your linux will rival windows but for now your stucking swearing on net
/smacks mole upside the head with internet explorer, relax noobcake.
Oh dear... so we dealing with one of these.
Ok, this is why.
Trident forms but one DLL of the IE architecture. Other components include WinInet for network comms, URLMon for MIME decoding, IEFrame is the container window, ShDocVw to handle caching and others and lastly BrowseUI which is all the menu prettiness.
So of the whole architecture we got one third being used for UI, the rest as shared OS components. Whats the big deal?
However!
"Removing Internet Explorer does have a number of consequences. Applications that depend on libraries installed by IE will fail to function, or have unexpected behaviors. The Windows help and support system will also not function due to the heavy reliance on HTML help files and components of IE. In versions of Windows before Vista, it is also not possible to run Microsoft's Windows Update or Microsoft Update with any other browser due to the service's implementation of an ActiveX control, which no other browser supports. In Windows Vista, Windows Update is implemented as a Control Panel applet.
However, as of build 7048 of Windows 7, Microsoft added the ability to safely remove Internet Explorer 8 from Windows.[69] Microsoft does not allow the dependencies to be removed through this process, but the Internet Explorer executable (iexplore.exe) is removed without harming any other Windows components."
So cry me a river.
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porchrat
Honorary Master
Well OK let me rephrase that then: Leave the bits shared by other programs in and remove the bits that are specific to IE. Is that really so hard?
Surely the people at Microsoft can handle that.
I agree that this actually has no bearing on how the OS functions. Personally I have no problem with just removing the icon from the desktop and carrying on with life. However I also believe that users should have the right to remove (not just hide from the GUI) the various files specific to IE that are not used by anything else. If I had the choice, I would still keep IE around, but it would be nice to have the choice.
*cries SlappY a river*
supersunbird
Honorary Master
Can I remove that damn search bar in FF? (IE7 and up also have it) I cant remove that search bar on FF, why don't they allow me to remove it? WHY CAN'T I REMOVE IT COMPLETELY IF I WANT TO?
Go install Linux and leave us MS users alone...
porchrat
Honorary Master
I agree. It isn't rational, but to some people it is a matter of principle, not a matter of how much space the EXE occupies on disk.
I had actually posted my response before I saw your edit (I added the river-crying part as an edit)
IMO 99.99999999999% of people won't bother using that IE removal option as it just makes more sense to keep the thing there as eventually you are going to encounter a website that just won't display properly through Firefox (or any other browser for that matter), but some people are foaming at the mouth anti-IE people and want to remove IE even if it makes life harder and, according to the EU, MS still needs to cater to those people.
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porchrat
Honorary Master
uh...you can remove it. Firefox is open source, if you don't want the search bar go get the code and remove it yourself.
Besides that isn't the same thing at all. I am not some sort of whacko Linux fanboi, I run XP and am quite happy with it, don't start foaming at the mouth now, the last thing the world needs is another Windows vs. Linux thread.
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Arthur
Honorary Master
You can if you want to! It's your PC!! You can, you can!
BUT YOU need to know how.
Or do you want Microsoft to hold your hand and do it for you? Really, porchrat, really!
Instructions for removing IE: Go to the appropriate folders and delete the appropriate executables, libraries and files. Take control of your PC!
If that fails, format c:/ <enter>. Voila!
Your complaint really arises from a misundertanding of modern desktop operating systems and applications. To bitch that you can't fully uninstall IE is like moaning you can't uninstall networking support, or audio, or even the GUI (and yes, people once moaned about every one of these as well). They were all once separate apps, but they are now much more modularised, abtracted, and componentised, with libraries shared across the system.
Back in the steam-driven-PC days applications were discrete self-contained universes. The operating system provided a C:/> prompt, and even the blinking cursor was a BIOS function call. Users could manipulate the operating system with text instructions like DIR, CLS, and even DEL. Power users knew arcane commands like DELTREE and MKDIR, and could even string these together in BAT files. The most brilliant users of the day knew command line switches and parameters!!! An application developer had to include just about everything in his app: all UI functions, keystroke handling, image rendering, communications, and so forth.
Things developed quite quickly. And have come a long way.
Today, the modern desktop operating system about town includes a rather larger set of functions, services, and capabilities. As basic PC hardware became more capable, it was natural and desirable that more and more capability be moved from individual applications into the operating system and core function libraries, so that these capabilities need only exist once whilst being shared by different applications.
There is an ongoing history of this evolution. (If you blame Microsoft for this fact then you implicitly recognise its leadership in driving the industry to new levels of function. MS never claimed to invent everything, but it sure is the leader in bringing new capability to the user as part of the basic system capabilities.)
Twenty-five years ago, local area networking was an add-on application for PCs, and very expensive. PC operating systems knew nothing about networks. Then in 1984 Microsoft included basic NETBIOS/NETBEUI support in MS-DOS 3.1. Of course the expensive networking apps people complained bitterly. This was encroaching on their business, and they didn't like it one byte. But users and networking and PC hardware people loved it, because MS gave their systems additional capability in the OS that wasn't there before - the ability to do new powerful things with their PCs, like easily and cheaply upgrade from the sneaker-network to a real local area network and quickly share files in new ways.
And so things developed rapidly.
The same thing happened with PC sound. And CD-ROMS. And GUIs. And even PC video.
In the early 90s, the internet was still had a newborn's gurgle. Though the typical PC now had a large hard disk of around 120MB (yes, megabytes), and Windows 3.11 included full LAN and even dial-up support, browsers were still discrete app-universe that needed to be fully installed. And yes, they could be fully and completely uninstalled.
Then the internet happened. Netscape was the Bright New Kid on the block. They charged users and companies for their browser, though the geeks behind the technology, like Marc Andreessen, really wanted the server business, preferring to stay away from the desktop PC, which was still regarded as a bit of toy.
(You know what the main criticism of Microsoft was back then? It wasn't internet-centric enough. It wasn't internet-aware. The new net-geeks mocked Windows as still stuck in the pre-internet world and the main evidence they cited was that it didn't integrate internet capability and thinking. Yes, back then Microsoft's sin was not integrating internet. Talk about heads you win, tails I lose.)
Microsoft quickly licensed technology and brought out Internet Explorer as an add-on for Win95. It wasn't great, but it was a start.
The internet became really really big.
Things developed fast. By the time IE4 was released (which the industry saw as a parity product and less buggy than Netscape 4.0), Microsoft had realised the internet was here to stay as a basic element of desktop computing. (In one of the most deft and amazing turnarounds in modern corporate history, the entire company was reoriented to think internet. I was there as an executive, and saw it all first hand.) Instead of developing libraries and services specific to only the browser, it made eminent sense to develop a much closer integration, optimising shared components, defining new APIs, updating libraries that could be more widely shared, and so on, so that the browser could more efficiently use other shared services also available to other applications.
So, porchrat, to conclude: In Them Old Days you could install and uninstall applications like networking, audio, video, graphics, windowing, etc. These were apps and not basic PC services. Today, these are basic PC services best provided by the operating system, because they are used across a wide range of applications. The same has happened with the browser. Because it uses so many shared libraries, trying to fully uninstall the browser is like trying to uninstall a con-rod in you car's engine. There will always be people who see this as a evidence of a dark and evil Microsoft conspiracy. The more knowledgable and elightened will know this is the natural and desired course of PC evolution, that it is a good thing and not a bad thing, that it makes sense from every possible perspective: rationally, technically, philosophically, commercially. It makes code management easier, application development easier -- and it provides a pretty adequate and reasonable level of function for the user.
At no extra charge.
Anti-Microsofters once mocked Windows for not integrating internet capability. Microsoft listened, and worked super-hard to change that. When it finally did integrate it, the same people complained IE was integrated! Some sued. And some governments fined Microsoft for doing so. Eish, man. Make up your blerry minds what you want. But please stop using governments and lawyers to tell Microsoft what they must do with their product.
One nice thing about Windows is there's a wide choice of stuff - much wider than on any other ten platforms combined. If you don't like MS IE, get another one. If you don't like the MS cosmos, move to another - there are many to choose from (and I go quite often myself). Simple, really. But it's time to stop the silly moans and move on from 1992.
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Net Performance
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I agree with you Arthur, but the switch "Think Internet" came a little later, let's say a little after when Google started to be more than : "great another search engine, just what we need". Microsoft have failed to push the msn portal to be what facebook / youtube / Myspace whatever mumbo jumbo social network web 2.0 they call is now. But that's another discussion... The next round (it already started) is to push applications in the browser.
Bottom line, Microsoft Vs EU sounds to me more like another attempt of the EU to prove they can stand still against a giant american company... Just lame if you want my opinion.
I'm using Microsoft Windows, it doesn't bother me to have IE Installed.... Heck back in the days I used to have Konqueror installed with my linux Distro (2001), never bothered to uninstall the software... The same goes when I'm using OSX...
I don't know what's wrong with people nowadays with their misunderstanding of what freedom really means...
Bottom line, Microsoft Vs EU sounds to me more like another attempt of the EU to prove they can stand still against a giant american company... Just lame if you want my opinion.
I'm using Microsoft Windows, it doesn't bother me to have IE Installed.... Heck back in the days I used to have Konqueror installed with my linux Distro (2001), never bothered to uninstall the software... The same goes when I'm using OSX...
I don't know what's wrong with people nowadays with their misunderstanding of what freedom really means...
RoosTa
Expert Member
YAAP* from Arthur
*Yet Another Awesome Post
*Yet Another Awesome Post