Interesting Article found by accident - History.

[K@izer§øze™]

I found this by accident when looking up the SAAF role in bombing Mozambique in the 80's. Wow. Look at who wrote this and the perceptions of the time. Also, see the notes section at the bottom. Point Nr 2. Will that ever be remembered or will it be conveniently forgotton?

Im pasting the link, as the article itself is too long to ( i think ) to place on here. Lemme know what ya think.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1983/Jul-Aug/alves.html

 

[Deenem]

Recently, after a bomb attack by the Communist-based African National Congress (ANC) in Pretoria,

Who remembers when the ANC were still 'Communists'?

 

[Albereth]

Who remembers when the ANC were still 'Communists'?

Some of them still are.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

Many of them still are.

There, fixed.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Some? Seems like most of them are... are at least pretend to be, whilst milking the Capitalist system for all they're worth.

 

[MadMailMan]

Quick, RUN!!!! The commies are coming!!! Oh, wait, they are already here.

Ever notice how the commie top dogs always have nice cars, houses (plural), gold watches etc etc?

 

[Lord Anubis]

Ja...die Goeie Ou Dae

 

[Syndyre]

Some? Seems like most of them are... are at least pretend to be, whilst milking the Capitalist system for all they're worth.

Definitely most, the stupidity of still being communist after everything that's happened in the world astounds me.

 

[Amerikanse]

I have extensively researched the CPSA's role in the ANC...and I STILL am not sure if the ANC is "communist based" or not...Madiba had a good thing going, but I think the ANC is just plain old corrupt. Whether or not that is a by-product of Commies in the Gov't I cannot say.

 

[StrongTurd]

I recalled an old article I read once about the abilities of the old SAAF when I saw this thread. In 1995 the Russians sent examples of their best hardware (Mig-29s and Sukhoi Su-35s) to Louis Trichardt for joint exercises. Those were arguably the best dogfighters in the world at the time while the South Africans were sporting the Cheetah, which was basically a locally souped-up version of the 1950s Mirage III.

Here's some extracts of what one of the Russian pilots wrote after the event:

The South Africans proved to feature the best professional skills both theoretical and practical. They are proficient in virtually all dogfighting and long-range air combat techniques, their antiradar and antimissile evasive manoeuvring skills are beyond reproach and in the air they feel like fish in water. In flight they decelerate to zero speed, stall, accelerate again and in doing so use all capabilities of their aircraft while keeping tabs on the opponent.""Obviously, their combat experience gained in Angola came in handy?"

...and...

In the first mock battle, which I fought with a Cheetah flown by a nice lad and top-notch professional pilot named Kazino [sp.?], I saw with my own eyes that the opponent's mastery of his bird was perfect. He was unafraid to decelerate and always kept tabs on the fluid situation... What I beat him with was the Kolokol (Bell) manoeuvre which enables one to immediately gain tactical advantage when performed properly. With me pulling off the Kolokol, the Cheetah raced through, with me dropping onto her in no time. It took my opponent some time to realise what had happened... Although from the tactical standpoint, loss of speed, as a rule, equals loss of advantage. However, when employed right, the Kolokol in some situations can earn you a sure victory: literally 20 seconds are enough to attain complete advantage in combat, even though certain risk persists, of course."
"First we had a few one-on-one dogfights - two to three battles in a sortie. We locked horns in a furball - he who got on the opponent's tail is the winner. Then we are ordered away from each other again for another go... South-African pilots lost all dogfights to see with their own eyes that their aircraft were no match for the MiG-29.

Following that, the hosts said that they had prepared a surprise for us in a long-range engagement. Indeed, the first long-range encounter was almost a draw. Based on gun camera recorders (I should admit that their data recorders are much superior to ours, everything is recorded on tape and one can use a Sony VCR to watch the tape and make his conclusions), the missile range was the criteria for determining the winner: our ranges proved to be only 2-3 km longer than those of the opponents: at an altitude of 6,000 m a SAR pilot ‘launched' a missile at a range of 33 km."

"I think, the exercise proved to be more useful to the South Africans pilots. The matter is they fought the aircraft of another generation, far more advanced ones. And we had a chance to gauge combat training of pilots from a different air force and compare it with that of the US pilots."

"Were the Mirages and Cheetahs as reliable as the Russian planes?"

"I wouldn't say so. They had their failures and delays. At times, an aircraft of the Russian Air Force would take off and the SAAF's wouldn't. Mind you, our hosts had substitutes and we had only one combat aircraft."

"Special mention should be made of the South African pilots' skills - they are excellent.

So the Russians beat the South Africans in close-in dogfights using vastly more modern hardware but remarkably, in beyond visual range engagements it was a draw!

You can say what you like about the old apartheid regime's defence force but there's no denying the fact that it was a truly spectacular fighting machine.

 

[MadMailMan]

You can say what you like about the old apartheid regime's defence force but there's no denying the fact that it was a truly spectacular fighting machine.

And now? Eish! She's broken.

 

[StrongTurd]

And now? Eish! She's broken.

Sad but true. I've been reading up on the R&D that was taking place in the SA weapons industry before the rot set in. There was the new 5th generation Carver fighter, world-beating air to air guided missiles, the new main battle tank, the enormous nuclear weapons program, a locally designed submarine, the G-6, new weapon systems for the Rooivalk etc. etc. For such a small country experiencing a total arms embargo and very strict sanctions this was an incredible achievement.

The UN security council passed a resolution in 1977 forbidding any weapons exports to South Africa. Ten years later they were forced to pass another resolution, this time banning the export of weapons FROM South Africa due to the amazing successes of the local arms industry!

It is very interesting to compare the almost complete isolation and sanctions that SA faced during those years compared to the toothless sanctions aimed at a few individuals in MadBob's regime and how the two countries performed respectively under those conditions. SA became a mecca for ultra high tech weapons development while MadBob was facing a million percent inflation and a ruined economy.

If only the new ANC government was not as incompetent, corrupt and racist as they are then the country could have gained massively from using the established arms industry as a national asset. Instead they decided to piss it all away.

 

[PeterCH]

Who remembers when the ANC were still 'Communists'?

By communist they meant they were SOVIET supported. Stalin killed the last Communists in the Soviet Union (and most of the world via the extermination of the Commintern in the 1930's). You should rather say that they were Bolshevik like the Soviets. (By Bolshevism I mean the fascist movement which
took Russia over from the provisional post-Tsarist government.)

It's not a secret that members of the ANC executive and many others
were trained in Moscow, East Germany, Poland, Hungary etc at the time.

 

[PeterCH]

So the Russians beat the South Africans in close-in dogfights using vastly more modern hardware but remarkably, in beyond visual range engagements it was a draw!

You can say what you like about the old apartheid regime's defence force but there's no denying the fact that it was a truly spectacular fighting machine.

So either the South Africans were very good or the Russians were pretty cr-ppy pilots. Just because the bloated behemoth of the Soviet Union said something was good, it didn't mean it was (I meant as ref to their own achievements).

 

[MadMailMan]

Sad but true. I've been reading up on the R&D that was taking place in the SA weapons industry before the rot set in. There was the new 5th generation Carver fighter, world-beating air to air guided missiles, the new main battle tank, the enormous nuclear weapons program, a locally designed submarine, the G-6, new weapon systems for the Rooivalk etc. etc. For such a small country experiencing a total arms embargo and very strict sanctions this was an incredible achievement.

The UN security council passed a resolution in 1977 forbidding any weapons exports to South Africa. Ten years later they were forced to pass another resolution, this time banning the export of weapons FROM South Africa due to the amazing successes of the local arms industry!

It is very interesting to compare the almost complete isolation and sanctions that SA faced during those years compared to the toothless sanctions aimed at a few individuals in MadBob's regime and how the two countries performed respectively under those conditions. SA became a mecca for ultra high tech weapons development while MadBob was facing a million percent inflation and a ruined economy.

If only the new ANC government was not as incompetent, corrupt and racist as they are then the country could have gained massively from using the established arms industry as a national asset. Instead they decided to piss it all away.

Yeah I remember when Armscor & Denel were powerhouses in this country. Now Denel is relying on government handouts. I think one of the biggest things MadBob has going for him is that he has the support of neighboring countries. We had complete isolation, apart from selling stuff to Israel and Iran. We are still desighning and building systems but It's hard to compete with the old Russia and now China. Also it's quite difficult to sell arms now that the UN has to "clear" everything.

 

[MidnightWizard]

By communist they meant they were SOVIET supported. Stalin killed the last Communists in the Soviet Union (and most of the world via the extermination of the Commintern in the 1930's). You should rather say that they were Bolshevik like the Soviets. (By Bolshevism I mean the fascist movement which took Russia over from the provisional post-Tsarist government.)

AAhhh Peter the Great -- I see we have a Trotskyite in our midst

It's not a secret that members of the ANC executive and many others
were trained in Moscow, East Germany, Poland, Hungary etc at the time.

Our grand ol El-Presidente went to a Soviet Military academy for a couple of years ( or was it one -- any way it seems long enough to have been brainwashed)

MW

 

[PeterCH]

AAhhh Peter the Great -- I see we have a Trotskyite in our midst



Our grand ol El-Presidente went to a Soviet Military academy for a couple of years ( or was it one -- any way it seems long enough to have been brainwashed)

MW

The Soviet Union had a fascist government, not based on Communist ideals (which is a society sans a government where everyone gives according to what he can give and receives what he requires) but on sociological issues,
ie the ruling elite sought to eliminate the old bourgeoisie and the nobility,
plus anyone standing in the way of the super-state, eg the Ukrainians Stalin starved to death, peasants opposed to the Bolsheviks, the Church etc. It was no different to Hitler's Nazi state, where the enemy were classed according to race and not societal status.

I speak as someone who lived under the Iron curtain as a little kid and whose great-grandparents praised Tsarist' Russia's wellbeing only to have to escape it because of the coming of the Bolsheviks, whose army officer uncle was almost killed by the Soviets at Katyn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YPmoJT1PRs
Trailer for the SOVIET STORY, I'd love to get a hold of this movie.

As is I'm no Troskoyite, I am purely a capitalist, liberal guy. I've lived under a Soviet satellite dictatorship and took part in May Day rallies,
only to escape the sham.

I read in Sunday Times earlier this year that Mbeki was beaten up once by his ANC comrades in Moscow, so badly that the Moscow Militia (Police) had to be called
in to break up the fight. This was in the 60's/70's.

 

[MidnightWizard]

The Soviet Story

Yup I would like to obtain a copy of that one as well

I always thought that the people killed at the KATYN Forest by the NKVD were POLISH officers and intellectuals ? ( After Hitler and Stalin divided up POLAND )

Have you ever heard of "ICEBREAKER" ???? ( an alternative interpretation of why Hitler had to roll out BARBAROSA )

You speak Russian ? I am just listening to the Russian Cosmonauts on the International Space Station.

MW

 

[PeterCH]

Yup I would like to obtain a copy of that one as well

I always thought that the people killed at the KATYN Forest by the NKVD were POLISH officers and intellectuals ? ( After Hitler and Stalin divided up POLAND )

Have you ever heard of "ICEBREAKER" ???? ( an alternative interpretation of why Hitler had to roll out BARBAROSA )

You speak Russian ? I am just listening to the Russian Cosmonauts on the International Space Station.

MW

I don't speak Russian although I do understand the language a little .

My great-grandparents lived in St Petersburg for a few years before the Revolution. Life was very comfortable there at the time. They amassed a substantial fortune which of course became worthless when the Bolsheviks took
over then all hell broke loose. They were of course Polish . They escaped the revolution and headed to Poland. My uncle was an army officer in the Polish army (he was a little boy when they escaped from Russia) and he escaped by chance from one of the Soviet trains carrying them eastwards, of course
they had no idea that they were to be executed. His brother, my grandfather was too young to be in the army at the time and although he wanted to join the partisans, his mother made sure he didn't. Both of them are still alive.
My great-grandparents had to host senior Wehrmacht officers in their house,
when the Russians came in 45, they ended up hosting Russians, all the Germans whom they hosted were later massacred in the nearby forest together with their men, by the Soviets.

I'm not a big fan of Russia, although I have a few Russian friends and a few German ones. People are different however, German, Russian, ordinary people are ok, sadly murderous pigs took over both countries at that time and we all know what happened.

 

[NoRulez]

And now? Eish! She's broken.

And she has the slow puncture disease...