IPv6 Discussion

ambo

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So IPv6 has been around for ages - but very little implementation as far as i've seen.

I know that there are little 'pockets' of IPv6 net around - i heard that parts of UCT were on it - and then all these patches are on kinda VPN'ed together through the IPv4 net.

Now are their any commercial networks that are using IPv6 - or is it just experimental nets?

And is there any way that i as the man on the street can VPN into the IPv6 net and purchase/register/whatever some IPv6 address space?
 
Trent242 said:
What is IPv6 ??????????
Internet Protocol version 6

But lets go back a step:
IPv4 is what we currently use - the main thing the people associate with IPv4 is the addressing system consisting of IP addresses such as
196.7.147.165 which is the address of this server... but the IPv4 standard also covers things like packet transport and packet layouts, etc.

Now there are many concerns that the number of IP addresses available on the IPv4 net are insufficient and we are running out of addresses - hence everyone having to use NAT's everywhere...

Now the main thing that IPv6 does is make the address space MUCH bigger along with various other improvements...

And when i say MUCH bigger i'm talking in the region of multiple IP addresses for each living person on the planet!!!
EDIT:
sorry - slight under statement... over 5 billion-billion-billion addresses per person...
 
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Other changes include intelligent broadcasting abilities.
What multibroadcast UDP was supposed to be all about.

It will be possible for a site to broadcast a stream of data [movie/radio/whatever] and have the routers accept and forward said stream if somebody on their route is subscribing to that stream. This will result in 0 wasted streaming bandwidth cos there is only one streaming version being sent out.

Currently 2 people listerning to radio are listerning to 2 different streams, that's a huge waste. Some ISP's have dome some clever routing and masking to fix to minimise waste, but they cannot achieve the utopia that IPv6 is promising.

I don't get what's taking them so long to upgrade though.
 
stoke said:
Other changes include intelligent broadcasting abilities.
What multibroadcast UDP was supposed to be all about.

It will be possible for a site to broadcast a stream of data [movie/radio/whatever] and have the routers accept and forward said stream if somebody on their route is subscribing to that stream. This will result in 0 wasted streaming bandwidth cos there is only one streaming version being sent out.

Currently 2 people listerning to radio are listerning to 2 different streams, that's a huge waste. Some ISP's have dome some clever routing and masking to fix to minimise waste, but they cannot achieve the utopia that IPv6 is promising.

I don't get what's taking them so long to upgrade though.

I think it's the amount of legacy technology still around... it's not exactly quick and simple to upgrade.

You need to consider all the aspects;

Technology
Skills (trained staff)
Time
Effort
 
I see. Thanks for the crash course. When will this be implemented fullblown, as the first post asked ?

Oh, and .geek, no I'm not capped, but I'm not at home on my dsl line either. I'm at work, hence me being unable to Google it.
 
Trent242 said:
When will this be implemented fullblown, as the first post asked ?
Yes - are there any consumer tier ISP that are offering connections to the IPv6? Even over a VPN system...

Implementing IPv6 would be much more practicle to implement at the client side first - rather than servers. There is backward compatibility built in that allow machines in the IPv6 net to connect out to legacy IPv4 services - but going the other way is very difficult to achieve.
 
IPv6 is used extensively in China as well. The government there is censoring internet usage severely. So, no thanks to IPv6.
 
stoke said:
Currently 2 people listerning to radio are listerning to 2 different streams, that's a huge waste. Some ISP's have dome some clever routing and masking to fix to minimise waste, but they cannot achieve the utopia that IPv6 is promising.

I don't get what's taking them so long to upgrade though.

Not entirely correct - its known as multicast, multicast streams are available on IPv4, one stream and unlimeted number of people tune into it.

You dont get whats taking it soo long? Your router being one of the devices that wont support IPv6 and thousands of peering routers and network devices wont either, so you're looking at either billions and billions of $$$ of investment, or you're looking at a slow changeover, and pockets of IPv6...
 
Most ISP's and companies in the US have more than enough IPv4 addresses, so they have no incentives to change over. This also goes for SA, our ISP's have been lucky. However, new IP blocks are incredibly hard to come by, and those that have refuses to share, because they know they won't get any new ones. So ironically IPv6 will probably be driven by the 3rd-world countries and the near & far eastern countries (My guess would be India, Korea, China & Japan, especially).

Microsoft is also to blame here, as usual. While the IPv6 specs have been out and (somewhat) implemented for a while now (since late 90's), they only put in a driver into WinXP SP 1 or 2 (can't remember which) for the first time. Some router manufacturers also lagged behind. In some cases (like Cisco) you can enable IPv6 with a software change, but in others you'll have to buy new equipment, since they don't support software updates.

A few years back (2000, IIRC) I asked IS what their stance on IPv6 is, and they said they'll roll it out when everyone else does. I ddi hear a rumour that UUNET will assign IPv6 addresses, though.
 
pimal3 said:
IPv6 is used extensively in China as well. The government there is censoring internet usage severely. So, no thanks to IPv6.

What does this have to do with IPv6?

IPv6 <> Censorship
 
Valerion said:
A few years back (2000, IIRC) I asked IS what their stance on IPv6 is, and they said they'll roll it out when everyone else does. I ddi hear a rumour that UUNET will assign IPv6 addresses, though.
Thats the nice bit about ipv6 - no assigning of anything. No DHCP servers. Connect your device and go
 
Valerion said:
A few years back (2000, IIRC) I asked IS what their stance on IPv6 is, and they said they'll roll it out when everyone else does. I ddi hear a rumour that UUNET will assign IPv6 addresses, though.

UUNET has just finished reinvesting in South Africa and has replaced most of their hardware, and upgraded all of their routers software. They should be fully IPv6 compliant.

I hope to see IS follow suit.
 
Obelix said:
Thats the nice bit about ipv6 - no assigning of anything. No DHCP servers. Connect your device and go
That I have to agree with. The ISP just assigns you your /64 or /48 or maybe even /32 (*drool*) netblock, and your machines automatically get IPs. VERY well designed, IMO. Can't wait for it to be rolled out here.

Even a measly /64 will give you up to 18446744073709552000 IP addresses according to http://www.ipv6tools.com - more than enough for me.

Carlhead said:
UUNET has just finished reinvesting in South Africa and has replaced most of their hardware, and upgraded all of their routers software. They should be fully IPv6 compliant.
Good to hear. Maybe this will spur the others on as well.

*prods SAIX and IS*
 
The reason why there is no large scale momentum toward ipv6 is that currently there is no dire need.

With NAT (specifically PAT) becoming the norm due to security requirements (running on private addrs is one of the fundamental security design principals) and hosting software becoming virtualised (most web & mail hosting sw can support 1000s of domains on a single IP), there isn't a massive requirement for more addrs now.

I suppose in time this will change, but I think its some time away. No one is going to go through the expense & trouble if there isn't a pressing need.
 
Roman4604 said:
The reason why there is no large scale momentum toward ipv6 is that currently there is no dire need.

With NAT (specifically PAT) becoming the norm due to security requirements (running on private addrs is one of the fundamental security design principals) and hosting software becoming virtualised (most web & mail hosting sw can support 1000s of domains on a single IP), there isn't a massive requirement for more addrs now.

I suppose in time this will change, but I think its some time away. No one is going to go through the expense & trouble if there isn't a pressing need.
This is a very unfortunate position to take, IMO. I seem to remember the scramble at the end of 1998 and 1999 to get ready for the Y2K problem. Five years before, when it would have been cheap to fix, no-one cared about it. The computing industry seems to wait until the last second before fixing problems.

According to http://bgp.potaroo.net/ipv4 the current IPv4 reserve will be exhausted by 2016 (10 years away) and total exhaustion is predicted in 2022, by assuming linear growth. This is, even though a large part of the Eastern countries are already moving towards IPv6 and not consuming as many IPv4 addresses. A different curve being fitted on the data by CISCO (http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_8-3/ipv4.html) hints at exhaustion in September 2008 (See Figure 8)

This forum is striving towards universal broadband adoption in SA. If we assume a 10% penetration (of any type, broadband or dialup), with a population of 40m, it gives us 4m needed IP addresses. To allocate 4m IP addresses, you will need 62 Class B address ranges (and 62 more for 3G/GPRS/EDGE enabled cellphones & PDA's).

The current address allocation is also very unfair towards the different registrars. As an example, APNIC has been assigned 16 Class A ranges (268,435,424 addresses) while AfriNIC has been assigned 1 Class A (16,777,214 addresses). IANA (which until now also included Africa) has allocated to itself 40 Class A addresses (671,088,560 addresses). The unallocated pool is 64 Class A addresses (1,073,741,696 addresses) (see the links above).

NAT and PAT and CIDR is a stopgap measure to reduce the number of actual allocations, and does make sense from a security point of view. However, it does mean that no push technologies can be implemented, as the machines are completely unreachable and at the mercy of the NAT/PAT device. If it is unable to forward data, then no data will reach the device. Also, some NAT/PAT devices break some IPSec implementations, since it has to rewrite the packets before sending them out. It also makes P2P implementations (eg. Skype) very unreliable. Many protocols (eg. SIP) now has to implement workarounds just to allow the devices behind the NAT to be accessible. I believe you can get the same level of security with a restrictive firewall than a private range and a NAT/PAT device. Just make sure no connections are allowed to the internal LAN that didn't originate from there, then filter what's allowed to be originated from inside, and you're all set.

If you have two embedded devices running the same service on the same port, there would be no way to send data to either one or the other, the device will have to go out and find the data. In addition, your internet-connected PVR cannot easily subscribe to a software update or EPG multicast feed from eg. Multichoice, or your internet-enabled fridge subscribing to a multicast feed from PicknPay and Spar, determining the lowest prices for you before you order new items. Something like this would make total bandwidth consumption a lot lower, as with IPv6 you only receive the feeds you subscribe to.
 
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