Is your 'suffering' real?

[darkevil]

(The following article appeared as the editor's note in the latest 'Your Money', iafrica.com's weekly personal finance and property newsletter......)

http://personalfinance.iafrica.com/finfitness/699535.html

I've had it with white folk who moan about affirmative action, BEE and how government policies are impoverishing white people.

According to an article in Rapport written by Frans Cronje of the South African Institute of Race Relations - a leading research organisation that is wholly independent of government and all political parties - unemployment among whites is around five percent. Contrast this with the national average of just over 23 percent or that of black people who suffer a jobless rate of 28 percent (or the USA's of almost 10 percent, or Ireland's of around 14 percent, or the UK at about eight percent, etc.).

Black South Africans are earning around 235 percent more in real terms than they did in 1996, but did this wealth come at the expense of white South Africans as many are claiming? Today, white South Africans earn about 217 percent more than they did in 1996, in spite of the fact that this growth is coming off a much higher base.

Today, white South Africans earn, on average, roughly six times more than black South Africans. Roughly 13 percent of adults in South Africa are white, but they account for more than 70 percent of those who earn more than R500 000 per year.

The percentage of poor white South Africans has doubled since 1994 - it now stands at 3.6 percent - but compare that to the 49 percent of black South Africans who are poor and you see where I'm going with this.

White South Africans, on average, have vastly higher incomes and living standards than black South Africans. White people have not become poorer since the advent of democracy; in fact, they're much wealthier and have more chance of finding employment than, say, the average New Zealander.

Why do people feel oppressed when clearly they're not? Why do people perceive their lot as so terrible when others have it so much worse?

I'm sick of going to a braai, eating thick steaks and drinking fine wine, and having to hear how tough "we" have it and, oh ja, check out this larney new BlackBerry.


When the government institutes laws that oppress a certain populous of the working class people are going to moan.

 

[Venomous]

Some of what you say have merit , but with others i disagree.

Perhaps it should be looked at the ratios working in the corporate sector. The lion's share of people working there are not white.

When i look around me i see a lot of small to medium businesses that were started by whites & only a few by blacks that run more mid to long term.

So yes the whites do suffer but it does not mean they stay down after they were kicked.

Both my SO & I each run our own independent businesses. Both of us are happier doing that than working in the politically corrupted corporate sector.

 

[Messugga]

The percentage of poor white South Africans has doubled since 1994

Noted.

White people have not become poorer since the advent of democracy;

Oh, but you just said...

This editor is an idiot.

 

[SinghDude]

Noted.


Oh, but you just said...

This editor is an idiot.

Not realy !!!

when read in context in makes sense.

 

[Vrotappel]

I'm sick of going to a braai, eating thick steaks and drinking fine wine, and having to hear how tough "we" have it and, oh ja, check out this larney new BlackBerry.

Anybody forcing you to go to these braais? Maybe you must hang somewhere else?

 

[blunomore]

(The following article appeared as the editor's note in the latest 'Your Money', iafrica.com's weekly personal finance and property newsletter......)

http://personalfinance.iafrica.com/finfitness/699535.html

I've had it with white folk who moan about affirmative action, BEE and how government policies are impoverishing white people.

According to an article in Rapport written by Frans Cronje of the South African Institute of Race Relations - a leading research organisation that is wholly independent of government and all political parties - unemployment among whites is around five percent. Contrast this with the national average of just over 23 percent or that of black people who suffer a jobless rate of 28 percent (or the USA's of almost 10 percent, or Ireland's of around 14 percent, or the UK at about eight percent, etc.).

Black South Africans are earning around 235 percent more in real terms than they did in 1996, but did this wealth come at the expense of white South Africans as many are claiming? Today, white South Africans earn about 217 percent more than they did in 1996, in spite of the fact that this growth is coming off a much higher base.

Today, white South Africans earn, on average, roughly six times more than black South Africans. Roughly 13 percent of adults in South Africa are white, but they account for more than 70 percent of those who earn more than R500 000 per year.

The percentage of poor white South Africans has doubled since 1994 - it now stands at 3.6 percent - but compare that to the 49 percent of black South Africans who are poor and you see where I'm going with this.

White South Africans, on average, have vastly higher incomes and living standards than black South Africans. White people have not become poorer since the advent of democracy; in fact, they're much wealthier and have more chance of finding employment than, say, the average New Zealander.

Why do people feel oppressed when clearly they're not? Why do people perceive their lot as so terrible when others have it so much worse?

I'm sick of going to a braai, eating thick steaks and drinking fine wine, and having to hear how tough "we" have it and, oh ja, check out this larney new BlackBerry.


When the government institutes laws that oppress a certain populous of the working class people are going to moan.

I do not see the problem.

The 5% unemployed white people and 28% unemployed black people have a right to moan and complain.

The rest of us do not necessarily all earn 6 figure salaries, so surely we are also allowed a say?

 

[Ancalagon]

The guy has a point, I'll give him that, but I still think any criticisms of AA and BEE are valid. Without them, millions of highly skilled white South Africans would not have left and our economy, and indeed service delivery, would be in a much better state. That would put the government in a much better position to fund primary, secondary and tertiary education for previously disadvantaged people, which would mean far more skilled black people. More skilled black people - less unemployed black people, more people involved in the economy, contributing tax, everyone wins. But no, the ANC government had to go for the short term fix to appease the masses, as well as BEE which is mandatory corruption.

 

[Roger.Wilco]

Why do people perceive their lot as so terrible when others have it so much worse?

There will always be someone worse off than you. The reason why I complain, is that I have to work my ass off, and I still don't get certain opportunities because I'm not a "previously disadvantaged individual". Those same opportunities then goes to some black dude, who has no work experience, no qualifications, and no ambition.

Why do I have to struggle to get somewhere, because every woman in a squatter camp wants to have 10 children each. And then they just keep demanding everything, because they're the majority. I know black people who had filthy rich parents while growing up, and still they get handed everything, because they were "previously disadvantaged".

 

[TJ99]

The percentage of poor white South Africans has doubled since 1994

White people have not become poorer since the advent of democracy;

Two things wrong with that. First, the sentence above (logic fail). Second, it really pisses me off if an article says decomcracy started in 1994. What the **** were we before then? An Absolute Monarchy? Did we have a king of SA? A communist dictatorship? An Empire?

We were a republic since 1961, and before that a part of the British Empire, with elected prime ministers, thus also a form of democracy. Before that, the Orange Free State and the ZAR were also republics, with elected assemblies.

Why do people feel oppressed when clearly they're not? Why do people perceive their lot as so terrible when others have it so much worse?

Well perhaps because it is bad for them. There's always someone worse off than you, that doesn't mean things aren't or are going good for you, and it's stupid to suggest such. If you suffer, you suffer. There might be people suffering more, and I'm sorry for them, but that doesn't invalidate your suffering.

If your hand gets cut off, you don't say "Ah, dont worry, there's another guy who had his whole arm cut off, so I'm fine", it still ****ing hurts.

Come on people

 

[Icarium]

There will always be someone worse off than you. The reason why I complain, is that I have to work my ass off, and I still don't get certain opportunities because I'm not a "previously disadvantaged individual". Those same opportunities then goes to some black dude, who has no work experience, no qualifications, and no ambition.
QUOTE]

You're inbuilt bias is showing. Most of the time you simply won't know the work experience, qualifications or ambitions of "some black dude" that got the opportunity that you wanted. Unless you can prove that you've lost out on an opportunity to a street sweeper (which is what you make it sound like), assuming that anyone of a darker complexion is by default less suited is exactly the kind of mindset that the OP is referring to.

 

[TheHiveMind]

It is quite simple, assuming black people are impoverished is a less effective method of tallying the impoverished, than simply tallying those who are impoverished based on their finances. We will continue to whine about this technicality until the mention of race is removed. It doesn't matter that I am not impoverished. It doesn't matter that I won't be affected either way. It is a matter of principle.
Why so hesitant to fix that which is broken? Is it because it is broken on purpose?

 

[OverKill69]

(The following article appeared as the editor's note in the latest 'Your Money', iafrica.com's weekly personal finance and property newsletter......)

http://personalfinance.iafrica.com/finfitness/699535.html

I've had it with white folk who moan about affirmative action, BEE and how government policies are impoverishing white people.

According to an article in Rapport written by Frans Cronje of the South African Institute of Race Relations - a leading research organisation that is wholly independent of government and all political parties - unemployment among whites is around five percent. Contrast this with the national average of just over 23 percent or that of black people who suffer a jobless rate of 28 percent (or the USA's of almost 10 percent, or Ireland's of around 14 percent, or the UK at about eight percent, etc.).

Black South Africans are earning around 235 percent more in real terms than they did in 1996, but did this wealth come at the expense of white South Africans as many are claiming? Today, white South Africans earn about 217 percent more than they did in 1996, in spite of the fact that this growth is coming off a much higher base.

Today, white South Africans earn, on average, roughly six times more than black South Africans. Roughly 13 percent of adults in South Africa are white, but they account for more than 70 percent of those who earn more than R500 000 per year.

The percentage of poor white South Africans has doubled since 1994 - it now stands at 3.6 percent - but compare that to the 49 percent of black South Africans who are poor and you see where I'm going with this.

White South Africans, on average, have vastly higher incomes and living standards than black South Africans. White people have not become poorer since the advent of democracy; in fact, they're much wealthier and have more chance of finding employment than, say, the average New Zealander.

Why do people feel oppressed when clearly they're not? Why do people perceive their lot as so terrible when others have it so much worse?

I'm sick of going to a braai, eating thick steaks and drinking fine wine, and having to hear how tough "we" have it and, oh ja, check out this larney new BlackBerry.


When the government institutes laws that oppress a certain populous of the working class people are going to moan.

I will always be against AA and BEE.

I started studying Engineering in 2000. I came from a good school, got good marks and thought my life was just getting off to the right start.

In engineering, you have to complete at least 8 weeks of vacation employment in your second year, "Vac Work" as it is known. As with other corporate vocations, your vacation work training contract will usually turn into a job once you graduate as long as your marks aren't crap.

I applied for Vac Work at all the companies where I thought I'd have the most chance of applying my skills and talents.
Afrox
SASOL
Denel
SAA
Eskom

You name it... I applied everywhere.

I was refused employment or a training contract at every one of those institutions because I was not a PDI (previously disadvantaged individual).
One company went as far as informing me that the position on offer will remain vacant until a suitable black candidate applies.

When I spoke to fellow class mates about the issue, the whities all had the same story, while the black and indian guys in the class were obviously not effected because they all had contacts already.

Now, I understand that there must be a re-balancing of the racial cross section... but at what cost?
The state spent hundreds of thousands of rands in university subsidies to train engineers like myself and then are turned away from the very same heavy industry players that are now hemorrhaging.

Almost every white graduate in my class went on to work at smaller privately owned companies. Others left the country... Others, like me, went on to open small businesses that had NOTHING to do with engineering.
We're talking bright young guys here... lost to the sector that they were trained for... from the leading university for engineering in our land.

I now employ over 20 people, and I am making a hell of a lot more money, working FOR MYSELF, than if I went to work for an engineering company.
I'm 30 years old, owner of a successful business, white, and over educated... apparently.

I'm not surprised we had:
Gas shortages
power failures
Plane's engines falling out the sky
Computer and Call center system meltdowns

When I think of the guys sitting next to me in class... not being given the chance to work in those sectors... instead, being forced overseas or into the private sector.
Guy's who won the chancellor's medal of excellence. Guy's who found, what I thought was bloody hard, easy as pie.
This one guy, our 2nd year design tutor, (he was in 4th year at the time)... happened to be indian, not black enough to be given a job where he applied... received the highest marks in the school of mechanical engineering.
Bumped into him the next year, and he'd been turned down from a few places because he was "Mauritian". Although he'd grown up and was educated here. He was moving back to Mauritius to run a his uncle's Koi farm.
Good call guys, that was the smartest man I'd ever had the pleasure of meeting... now we've lost him as a resource.
It is the government's own fault.
Lack of foresight.

I can not tell you the crimes against humanity that were propagated by not letting some of these bright guys into those jobs.
There simply weren't too many black students with us.
Out of the 80 students in 4th year, maybe 5 were black... about another 10 were indian.
THAT'S WHAT SHOULD BE CHANGED! NOT THE JOB MARKET.

Get more black matriculants getting A-aggregate university exemptions into engineering... THEN you will see lives changing.

 

[Roger.Wilco]

You're inbuilt bias is showing. Most of the time you simply won't know the work experience, qualifications or ambitions of "some black dude" that got the opportunity that you wanted. Unless you can prove that you've lost out on an opportunity to a street sweeper (which is what you make it sound like), assuming that anyone of a darker complexion is by default less suited is exactly the kind of mindset that the OP is referring to.

I've seen black people coming into an IT company, where their previous employment was working at KFC. No qualifications, just "interested in IT". Do you think that's fair? If they're really interested in IT, why not do some short evening course in it? And these are the people getting sent on courses, instead of people higher up, who's been working here for years. We've approached management on this before, and the answer we received is that they need to comply to BEE / BBEEE or whatever standards.

So yes, I'm biased, but I have reason to be...

 

[Nerfherder]

I do not see the problem.

The 5% unemployed white people and 28% unemployed black people have a right to moan and complain.

The rest of us do not necessarily all earn 6 figure salaries, so surely we are also allowed a say?

Everyone is allowed to complain.... its a bad situation. Rich white people are less employable and poor black people are even less employable.

Without BEE and AA white people would still have been losing jobs to black people after the fall of apartheid. Its simple economics.

What this article failes to mention is the amount of people leaving the country or working overseas... its a huge consideration. Does anyone (white) know a family who does not have one person in their family working or living overseas ?
I'm never really sure if its a good or a bad thing, it just is what it is.

 

[w1z4rd]

This thread is a wonderful example of collective denial

 

[Nerfherder]

I've seen black people coming into an IT company, where their previous employment was working at KFC. No qualifications, just "interested in IT". Do you think that's fair? If they're really interested in IT, why not do some short evening course in it? And these are the people getting sent on courses, instead of people higher up, who's been working here for years. We've approached management on this before, and the answer we received is that they need to comply to BEE / BBEEE or whatever standards.

So yes, I'm biased, but I have reason to be...

I have seen that as well. The dude who used to work with me had a one year programming certificate and worked in a cellphone shop. They gave him a job, he managed to arb around for 4 years before they managed to transfer him out (he earned more than me as well). He still can't do anything... but the powers that be learn't their lesson, everyone else they have hired has been of the highest standard and I have had to pull up my socks. If your company can't learn that lesson they will fail, hard.

Make sure you are not working for some one who is that stupid... its going to end up causing problems for you.

 

[Albereth]

This thread is a wonderful example of collective denial

Oh no it isn't.

 

[Palimino]

I will always be against AA and BEE.

I started studying Engineering in 2000. I came from a good school, got good marks and thought my life was just getting off to the right start.

In engineering, you have to complete at least 8 weeks of vacation employment in your second year, "Vac Work" as it is known. As with other corporate vocations, your vacation work training contract will usually turn into a job once you graduate as long as your marks aren't crap.

I applied for Vac Work at all the companies where I thought I'd have the most chance of applying my skills and talents.
Afrox
SASOL
Denel
SAA
Eskom

You name it... I applied everywhere.

I was refused employment or a training contract at every one of those institutions because I was not a PDI (previously disadvantaged individual).
One company went as far as informing me that the position on offer will remain vacant until a suitable black candidate applies.

When I spoke to fellow class mates about the issue, the whities all had the same story, while the black and indian guys in the class were obviously not effected because they all had contacts already.

Now, I understand that there must be a re-balancing of the racial cross section... but at what cost?
The state spent hundreds of thousands of rands in university subsidies to train engineers like myself and then are turned away from the very same heavy industry players that are now hemorrhaging.

Almost every white graduate in my class went on to work at smaller privately owned companies. Others left the country... Others, like me, went on to open small businesses that had NOTHING to do with engineering.
We're talking bright young guys here... lost to the sector that they were trained for... from the leading university for engineering in our land.

I now employ over 20 people, and I am making a hell of a lot more money, working FOR MYSELF, than if I went to work for an engineering company.
I'm 30 years old, owner of a successful business, white, and over educated... apparently.

I'm not surprised we had:
Gas shortages
power failures
Plane's engines falling out the sky
Computer and Call center system meltdowns

When I think of the guys sitting next to me in class... not being given the chance to work in those sectors... instead, being forced overseas or into the private sector.
Guy's who won the chancellor's medal of excellence. Guy's who found, what I thought was bloody hard, easy as pie.
This one guy, our 2nd year design tutor, (he was in 4th year at the time)... happened to be indian, not black enough to be given a job where he applied... received the highest marks in the school of mechanical engineering.
Bumped into him the next year, and he'd been turned down from a few places because he was "Mauritian". Although he'd grown up and was educated here. He was moving back to Mauritius to run a his uncle's Koi farm.
Good call guys, that was the smartest man I'd ever had the pleasure of meeting... now we've lost him as a resource.
It is the government's own fault.
Lack of foresight.

I can not tell you the crimes against humanity that were propagated by not letting some of these bright guys into those jobs.
There simply weren't too many black students with us.
Out of the 80 students in 4th year, maybe 5 were black... about another 10 were indian.
THAT'S WHAT SHOULD BE CHANGED! NOT THE JOB MARKET.

Get more black matriculants getting A-aggregate university exemptions into engineering... THEN you will see lives changing.

Exactly! + 1 million. And the education system is being trashed to make ‘graduation’ figures look better.

 

[Emjay]

White people may be earning more, but it would be interesting to see how many of those people are earning 200% more (since 1996) are those with critical skills. Demand for those skills is most likely at an all time high with supply not meeting those needs, thus increasing the total cost.

Granted, apartheid created a massive imbalance in terms of skills, but that is improving each year (see Uni graduation stats).

This problem is only going to be compounded by additional immigration. While this may be anecdotal, I personally know of 6 additional families that are actively trying to immigrate (not including my family). The Department of Home Affairs is not tracking this movement, so planning to overcome this is almost impossible.

AA and BEE are marginalizing the white minority. Whites will never be happy with it because it is discrimination based on skin colour.

 

[scotty777]

I will always be against AA and BEE.

I started studying Engineering in 2000. I came from a good school, got good marks and thought my life was just getting off to the right start.

<snip>

Get more black matriculants getting A-aggregate university exemptions into engineering... THEN you will see lives changing.

I couldn't agree more. I've applied for bursaries, and been promptly rejected. I'm now going to register for my 2nd year electrical engineering with decent 1st year marks, and I don't know how I'm going to manage getting vac work (it's a requirement). I'm hoping my sister's friend's dad (who be electrical engineer) will be able to help me out (I'm hoping having come from the same school he'll give me a chance). Otherwise I'm hoping a friend will sort me out.

A member on the forum has given me a link to a site that might help me out with bursaries, but right now, I'm so demotivated to do it, I've been making up reasons not to call them . This is the problem with BEE and AA that people don't want to see. If you get told "sorry, you might as well not try, you won't make it anyway" you might fight it, but sooner or later you going to start losing faith. When this happens, you just give up trying.

Furthermore, onto picking holes into the article/rant. If you really really really want to look at those stats with a critical eye (since the author wants to be critical of whites, I thought it would only be fair), you could look at the whole fact that there's 5% lazy whites, and 28% lazy blacks... How do I come up with this? Well, if you want to work, you'll find work. If it's street sweeping, cleaning houses, gardening, whatever, it's still work. Funny how we have an influx of Zimbabweans coming in, and 'stealing' work from the locals... If the locals were already employed, then the Zimbabweans and what not won't be able to steal work... So yes, laziness.