Israel a mistake

Sadf

The Commission also found that the conduct of the South African security forces in the region was largely driven by racist factors. It argued, for example, that "it is difficult to believe that Koevoet (the police counter-insurgency unit which operated in northern Namibia) would have been allowed to operate on a bounty basis, or that the SADF would have killed over 600 people, many of them children and women, at the Kassinga camp in Angola, had their targets been white" (vol. 2, pp. 43 - 44). This racism, the Commission felt, was encapsulated in the words with which the SADF camp commander in northern Namibia greeted a new batch of conscripts in 1974: "Boys, hier gaan julle duisende kaffirs doodskiet" ("Boys, here you will shoot thousands of kaffers").

I would like to comment on the subject of the SADF. Firstly there was a huge distinction between the Spec Forces (Recces) and the rest. Secondly, Koevet did not fall under the army, but was in essence a South West African Counter Insurgency Police Force. They may called on the army to coordinate their movements, but they where not part of the SADF chain off command. AS an ex-SADF conscript we were as well trained and well disciplined as a conscript army can get. The use of minimal force when put into a situation of which army's should not be used (namely riot control) was drilled into us, even to the point where troops where not allowed to carry ther conventional weapons with them. What happened in over Angola's borders was not counter insurgency, but conventional and that is what they trained for. Nobody hears of atrocities of a large scale happening there. Further, I am pretty sure the other-side at that time would not have adhered to the Geneva Covention if they ever captured anybody involved with the security forces. Most of the crimes and atrocities were carried out by units within the security mechanism, mostly security-police, but not part of the conventional police as we knew it. These units normally operated outside the law and by-passed the normal chain of command within the security structures to report directly to the then executive. How, else could the then NAT executive keep it quiet, for lets face it they wer'nt the most subtal or clever of operators.
 
SuperAntMD said:
This is also completely innacurate on the side of the IDF. Where's my evidence that this isn't true you ask? How about the fact that there are Arabs in the IDF!!! If you dont believe me google Herev battalion.
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Perhaps they should be viewed as traitors like the black people who assisted the SADF. Or are you telling us that the Afrikaner Nationalists actually loved black people and their intentions were just misunderstood?

The SADF made it very clear we were there to kill black people (not the term they used of course).

I am told by people who served in the IDF that the attitude was the same. Just because they portray a particular attitude to the media does not mean commanders and instructors don't present and encourage a different attitude.
 
VJB 449 said:
I served in the SADF under the national service regime. This is definitely not how the SADF viewed black people. Please retract your statement as I consider it hate speech and offencive.
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Oh please. What, hate speech against a now defunct organisation? We were there to illegally occupy a foreign country, Namibia, and oppress its citizens who wanted us out. And we were illegally invading Angola, amongst others, as well.
 
noxibox said:
Perhaps they should be viewed as traitors like the black people who assisted the SADF. Or are you telling us that the Afrikaner Nationalists actually loved black people and their intentions were just misunderstood?

The SADF made it very clear we were there to kill black people (not the term they used of course).

I am told by people who served in the IDF that the attitude was the same. Just because they portray a particular attitude to the media does not mean commanders and instructors don't present and encourage a different attitude.
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The SADF thing has been disproven already by people that were in it. There were conscriptions at the time. Are you trying to say that all whites are racist? Think about your accusations before you type this garbage.

As for the IDF is it your opinion that any Arab that doesn't want to see Israel detroyed is a traitor i.e. anyone who doesn't conform to your ill-informed maniacal extremist views of the world is obviously wrong?

I struggle to believe that anyone with your opinions and close-mindedness knows anyone who served in the IDF. I, on the other hand do know a large number of people who have/are currently serving in the IDF and I can assure this is not the case. There may be some people in the army (as there are anywhere else) that are racist, but they are a minority.

Roughly 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, Israel has two official languages one is Hebrew and one is Arabic. Your inccessant refusal to learn something about the topic you discuss is getting tiresome. Please read something, anything on the matter before brandishing this cr@p.
 
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VJB 449 said:
I served in the SADF under the national service regime. This is definitely not how the SADF viewed black people. Please retract your statement as I consider it hate speech and offencive.
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I consider it offensive that you try to defend the SADF. Can I whine and complain too? :rolleyes:
 
SuperAntMD said:
The SADF thing has been disproven already by people that were in it. There were conscriptions at the time. Are you trying to say that all whites are racist? Think about your accusations before you type this garbage.

As for the IDF is it your opinion that any Arab that doesn't want to see Israel detroyed is a traitor i.e. anyone who doesn't conform to your ill-informed maniacal extremist views of the world is obviously wrong?
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I never said all whites are racist. SADF = institution, a racist one. Just because everyone who was dragged off to the army was not a racist does not make the institution itself non-racist.

I never once said that Arabs who serve in the IDF are traitors. The point is that just because they happen to be in the IDF does not make the IDF non-racist. Or are you really going to tell me that there being black people in the SADF meant it wasn't there to serve the racist agenda of the government?
 
noxibox said:
I never once said that Arabs who serve in the IDF are traitors. The point is that just because they happen to be in the IDF does not make the IDF non-racist. Or are you really going to tell me that there being black people in the SADF meant it wasn't there to serve the racist agenda of the government?
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My apologies I misunderstood you.

So you are saying that the people in the IDF aren't racist, but that it serves a racist government, or that its aims and goals are racist. I disagree. Israel (and therefore the IDF) doesn't dislike, Hizbollah or Hamas because they're Arab it hates them because they attack Israel and blow up innnocent people on busses and drop missiles indiscriminantly on half of Israel.

The majority of Arab countries in the middle east and elsewhere (with notable exceptions of Egypt and Jordan who have signed treaties with Israel and recognise her) want Israel to be destroyed- they have stated as much. The fact that the IDF then goes to war with such people is a logical conclusion. Now just because Israel is surrounded by Arab states that vow destruction and therefore all of Israel's enemies are Arab doesn't make the IDF racist. The fact that its enemies are Arabs is a matter of cicumstance not design.

If Israel was in the middle of Africa, and the 5 countries around it were at war with her on and off, it wouldn't mean Israel hated black people.
 
Just wish everyone would ignore Israel. The more conflict or action against them, the more funds they get from Hollywood, Wall street and the USA Government. Everyone should just make peace and stop whining and carry on with normal lives. Israel is not going to disappear.
 
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Those of you who were mouthing off about the Angola situation should do a little more homework, it had nothing to do with racism, it had to do with the politics of the time (not the racial politics of the nats), and the strategic value of South Africa at the time.
The Western powers , us included were at war with COMMUNISM, nothing more , nothing less.
Communism had taken hold , or communist backed regimes had taken hold over most of Southern Africa, Angola, Zambia , Mozambique, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe had fallen, South Africa , and then South West were the only two left, we occupied Namibia to keep the war on that border and to secure that border because Namibia happens to have some of the richest deposits of Uranium in the world, South Africa was at the time one of the richest mineral producers,and neither country could afford to fall under Communist control. South Africa controls the South Atlantic, and the West used the sea route around the cape to clandestinely move fleets from the atlantic to the Indian Ocean and the Persian gulf,if the Communists had gained control of the Cape, that would have shut down the wests naval ability at the time, remember those were the days when there were not that many satelites to monitor everywhere as today. So the west could not afford to let South Africa fall into the enemies hands , and therefore they turned a blind eye to our politics at the time, when the Berlin wall came down , and the Soviet Union dissolved , so did the Nats, they had served their purpose and were therefore defunct, communism was no longer a threat and so the ANC came to be unbanned and came to power, simple , clean ,and neat, politics , nothing more nothing less
 
Nanfeishen said:
Those of you who were mouthing off about the Angola situation should do a little more homework, it had nothing to do with racism, it had to do with the politics of the time (not the racial politics of the nats), and the strategic value of South Africa at the time.
The Western powers , us included were at war with COMMUNISM, nothing more , nothing less.
Communism had taken hold , or communist backed regimes had taken hold over most of Southern Africa, Angola, Zambia , Mozambique, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe had fallen, South Africa , and then South West were the only two left, we occupied Namibia to keep the war on that border and to secure that border because Namibia happens to have some of the richest deposits of Uranium in the world, South Africa was at the time one of the richest mineral producers,and neither country could afford to fall under Communist control. South Africa controls the South Atlantic, and the West used the sea route around the cape to clandestinely move fleets from the atlantic to the Indian Ocean and the Persian gulf,if the Communists had gained control of the Cape, that would have shut down the wests naval ability at the time, remember those were the days when there were not that many satelites to monitor everywhere as today. So the west could not afford to let South Africa fall into the enemies hands , and therefore they turned a blind eye to our politics at the time, when the Berlin wall came down , and the Soviet Union dissolved , so did the Nats, they had served their purpose and were therefore defunct, communism was no longer a threat and so the ANC came to be unbanned and came to power, simple , clean ,and neat, politics , nothing more nothing less
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Good post.
 
yeah the Border War was against communism

"The South African Border War refers to the conflict that took place from 1966 to 1989 in South-West Africa (now Namibia) and Angola between South Africa and its allied forces (mainly UNITA) on the one side and the Angolan government, SWAPO (South-West Africa People's Organisation) and their allies (mainly the Soviet Union and Cuba) on the other."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Border_War
 
Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of
the world population...

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz.

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat

Physics:
1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewail

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad



Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about
00.02% of the world population...

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadte r
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1 953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Art hur Ko rnberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen (& Rita Levi-Montalcini)
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis


The Jews are not demonstrating with their dead on the streets,
yelling and chanting and asking for revenge.

The Jews are not promoting brain washing their children in military
training camps.

The Jews are not teaching their children how to blow themselves up
and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims.

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad
and death to all the Infidels.

The Jews don't have the economic strength of petroleum, nor the
possibilities to force the world's media to see "their side" of the
question.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in
standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.
 
What i'd love to know is this:
Number of Zionist jews in Palestinian area pre WW1
Number of Palestinians (incl orthodox jews, christians, muslims) in Palestine Pre WW1
 
Neio what is the relevence of your Nobel prize list, does a human being have to win awards to be regarded worthy of freedom and dignity? It's no different from those who boast about "inventing the wheel" and other advancements to try and justify Apartheid and colonialism.
 
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