IT jobs: SA vs abroad

[Skinner]

I think this can make a very interesting and informative topic, since I think many of those on this forum are in the IT field (like me), and since emmigrating / running away is currently a hot topic, it could be well worthwhile to consider the options.

Since I've worked in IT in SA and up to now in Europe, I'll voice my opinions, but would appreciate other opinions as well from those in the know-how.

Hypothesis: IT jobs are not necessarily better abroad than in SA currently.

Characteristics of IT jobs in SA:
IT market still going strong but resources are more scarce than ever because of the brain-drain. The remaining IT people that stay in SA get paid even more now. AA still has little effect on IT positions, but good white or black applications have both good chances to get good jobs. So if you earn good salary, you benefit from the (relative to Europe) cheap living costs in SA, and can spend/save a sh1tload of money, have nice house and cars, etc.

Characteristics of IT jobs in Europe:
Salaries can be equal or better than SA, especially when those Euros are converted to Rands. Unfortunately your seemingly nice bruto salary is nailed with social taxes. Percentage-wise you get much less out of your salary than what you would have in SA. Also, lot less are tax deductable. So for barely more money you live in a small flat with no car and crappy weather. As far as the job goes: they work you to the bone. No thing like early Fridays off. Faked formalities to hide your informal working style you've became accustomed to in SA, won't work here. Neither will charm and friendliness - it will be completely be ignored. You might as well smile at a brick wall. Brownie points are not even in European's vocabulary, so forget about trying to impress anyone on anything but solid work performance, formal qualifications and merit. And even that won't cause much positive reaction - it's your job, after all.

Characteristics of IT jobs in USA/Australia:
I have no experience here - would someone fill in?

Any comments or opinions anyone, to support or undermine my hypothesis?

 

[KillerX]

Characteristics of IT jobs in Europe:
Salaries can be equal or better than SA, especially when those Euros are converted to Rands. Unfortunately your seemingly nice bruto salary is nailed with social taxes. Percentage-wise you get much less out of your salary than what you would have in SA. Also, lot less are tax deductable. So for barely more money you live in a small flat with no car and crappy weather. As far as the job goes: they work you to the bone. No thing like early Fridays off. Faked formalities to hide your informal working style you've became accustomed to in SA, won't work here. Neither will charm and friendliness - it will be completely be ignored. You might as well smile at a brick wall. Brownie points are not even in European's vocabulary, so forget about trying to impress anyone on anything but solid work performance, formal qualifications and merit. And even that won't cause much positive reaction - it's your job, after all.

I just want to correct you on something... you make the picture appear very bleek with things in Europe. IT is similar to many other sectors in europe, so my comment will be more general and not just related to I.T. It is a very different lifestyle and you have to understand the socialist system. Yes people are nailed with taxes... but unlike South Africa where you dont get SQUAT from goverment (gotto seek private schools, private healthcare, private security) which in the end cost you much more than the same things you get in europe for free by paying tax.

People are happy to pay tax there, because they know the goverment will look after them if they become ill, the goverment actually provides security with their police forces, and many education systems are free or heavily subsidized.

People there do not have multiple cars because they dont need them. The public transport system is excellent. And homes there arent considered a 'big thing'. Most people in europe dont sit at home... their home is only where they sleep, they go and dine out... they go out at night and over the weekend.

Many south africans find europe very hard to adjust to... and many bad mouth it. But most of these people are only there on temporary permits, and do not reep many of the benefits that european citizens do.

South Africa 10 years ago had a much higher standard of living in my opinion. Houses were cheap, so were cars, and petrol, and electricity. Have you noticed the price increases lately? South africa is becoming VERY VERY expensive to live in for the average person. Added to that is the fact that goverment doesnt really provide us with any decent service delivery. Hospitals, schools, municipalties, even internet is far behind that of europe, and this forces up to cough up alot of extra money to get these 'basics'

 

[Robin Hood]

Im in IT 2 and will stick 2 the end. Funny that you mentioned it, but i also foresee some good "gaps" for us in the near future in this country in regarding to IT related jobs. Mark my words, the time will come when WE can make a price ( thats if youre good at what you do though...) and companies will just have to adapt

 

[ghalied]

I'm hoping to land a network role in SA in 2009-2010, but have been keeping up to date with the trends back home and judging from the advertised roles the salaries don't look that great which is a little off putting.

CT is my prefered location as Jozie is not my cup of tea at all. I'm very hopefull and know that I won't land the right job off the bat, but I'll get there eventually.

 

[lion_fish]

I just want to correct you on something... you make the picture appear very bleek with things in Europe. IT is similar to many other sectors in europe, so my comment will be more general and not just related to I.T. It is a very different lifestyle and you have to understand the socialist system. Yes people are nailed with taxes... but unlike South Africa where you dont get SQUAT from goverment (gotto seek private schools, private healthcare, private security) which in the end cost you much more than the same things you get in europe for free by paying tax.

People are happy to pay tax there, because they know the goverment will look after them if they become ill, the goverment actually provides security with their police forces, and many education systems are free or heavily subsidized.

People there do not have multiple cars because they dont need them. The public transport system is excellent. And homes there arent considered a 'big thing'. Most people in europe dont sit at home... their home is only where they sleep, they go and dine out... they go out at night and over the weekend.

Many south africans find europe very hard to adjust to... and many bad mouth it. But most of these people are only there on temporary permits, and do not reep many of the benefits that european citizens do.

South Africa 10 years ago had a much higher standard of living in my opinion. Houses were cheap, so were cars, and petrol, and electricity. Have you noticed the price increases lately? South africa is becoming VERY VERY expensive to live in for the average person. Added to that is the fact that goverment doesnt really provide us with any decent service delivery. Hospitals, schools, municipalties, even internet is far behind that of europe, and this forces up to cough up alot of extra money to get these 'basics'

Couldnt have said it better myself.

I have found the lifestyle and money over in the UK 100x better in my opinion. I have only been here +- 4 months and already i am "wealtheir" even after paying the so-called "cripling" taxes...

My householfd income has tripled per year which is alot of money and i dont have any stupid expenes like ADT-security etc to pay for.
The governemnt systems work as does the policing and healthcare.

My flat here is as big, if not bigger than a flat in South Africa. Yes some places here are matchboxes, but alot of new biuld properties have moved towards the bigger property sizes to cater for an international market.

 

[Robin Hood]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

I have found the lifestyle and money over in the UK 100x better in my opinion. I have only been here +- 4 months and already i am "wealtheir" even after paying the so-called "cripling" taxes...

My householfd income has tripled per year which is alot of money and i dont have any stupid expenes like ADT-security etc to pay for.
The governemnt systems work as does the policing and healthcare.

...lucky you

 

[ettubrute]

Have to agree with KillerX on most of the post, except for the following:

Most people in europe dont sit at home... their home is only where they sleep, they go and dine out... they go out at night and over the weekend.

I suppose it depends on where you are in Europe! My experience was the opposite, but that might have been due to the fact that I didn't live in a city, but more rural... People were house-bound, and very private about it as well. Things like braais and parties at your house were frowned upon, since you would be intruding on the neighborhood.

But the living standard was definitely better there... Only the weather...

 

[dlk001]

I have found the lifestyle and money over in the UK 100x better in my opinion. I have only been here +- 4 months and already i am "wealtheir" even after paying the so-called "cripling" taxes...

100x is really impressive. You have done really well. Hopefully a lot of people will better that and be "wealtheirer".

 

[lion_fish]

100x is really impressive. You have done really well. Hopefully a lot of people will better that and be "wealtheirer".

I honestly hope so too. Enjoy your R10/L petrol in your generator, illl think of you when i walk safely in the park or have a great night out and walk home at 3am without incident...

 

[bwana]

People are happy to pay tax there, because they know the goverment will look after them if they become ill, the goverment actually provides security with their police forces, and many education systems are free or heavily subsidized.

rofl - people are never happy paying tax - I've paid taxes all over the place and its never a happy occasion.

People there do not have multiple cars because they dont need them. The public transport system is excellent.

This is true only if you live in a major metropolitan area - outside of those public transportation can be as non existent as it is here.

And homes there arent considered a 'big thing'. Most people in europe dont sit at home... their home is only where they sleep, they go and dine out... they go out at night and over the weekend.

 

[Piepalook]

rofl - people are never happy paying tax - I've paid taxes all over the place and its never a happy occasion. This is true only if you live in a major metropolitan area - outside of those public transportation can be as non existent as it is here.

This is surely Nirvanna.

 

[KillerX]

rofl - people are never happy paying tax - I've paid taxes all over the place and its never a happy occasion.

You know what im implying... everyone pays tax... its a fact of life. You WILL pay tax wherever you live . Now are you going to be happier knowing that you actually get something in return for it? Or knowing your paying tax so that most of it can go to those riding the gravy train and you wont see much benefit from it?

What I mean to say from the homes perspective is something many South Africans dont understand. We sit at home over weekends and invite people over for a braai and to watch the game. Or we will rent a movie and sit at home.

Europe is different in that the entertainment and nightlife is on another level. People go out to the pub to watch the game, they go out to drink coffee at the coffee shop. Homes are small and expensive yes, but you dont 'feel it' so much as you dont spend much time at home.

Just dont expect good weather. Unless you end up in the mediterannian somehwere. Your south african tan fades in europe very quickly.

 

[Claymore]

illl think of you when i walk safely in the park or have a great night out and walk home at 3am without incident...

Of course, you have walk home because of the UKP1 per litre petrol, congestion charges, and ludicrous registration/MOT costs.

In SA, we can afford to drive cars.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

What I mean to say from the homes perspective is something many South Africans dont understand. We sit at home over weekends and invite people over for a braai and to watch the game. Or we will rent a movie and sit at home.

Europe is different in that the entertainment and nightlife is on another level. People go out to the pub to watch the game, they go out to drink coffee at the coffee shop. Homes are small and expensive yes, but you dont 'feel it' so much as you dont spend much time at home.

I don't think that either is better than the other, they're just different lifestyles. Some just prefer one over the other - not everybody is into going out every night, and not everybody is into having gatherings at home.

 

[sabagamma]

How is Europe wrt formal qualifications? I have a number of years of software development experience. Would I stand a chance of getting a job in the UK or continental Europe? In SA people with my skills are in high demand.

 

[Ricard]

Do the maths...

SA, the working week is 42Hrs,
UK its 37.5Hrs

Annual leave is typically 20days per year.
As for the work stress, SA's information tech companies stress employees to the max... UK tech sector managers put a value on family life, and some companies penalise you for working too many hours.
If you are used to Gauteng Stress, then the UK is a walk in the park. (hence..... you are less likely to work yourself in to an heart attack)

Winter, sunset is 4pm and sunrise its 9am..
Summer sunset is 10pm .. sunrise is 4am

In the winter times there are fewer carnivals and expo's ... but in the summer, you wont be able to keep up with all the festivals and things to do.

 

[Ricard]

Of course, you have walk home because of the UKP1 per litre petrol, congestion charges, and ludicrous registration/MOT costs.

In SA, we can afford to drive cars.

LOL!! Mistake #1

dont convert R and £ - You totally misinterpret the 'Scale of Economies' . (ask Telkom about that thing)

If you earn £3000 per month.. is a £150 a year going to bankrupt you for a MOT and Road Tax? btw, its not £1 a litre... its £1.06

I just got myself a new car... £8000 for a 1.6 Zetec Ford focus (0KM on the clock) you do that in SA...

Of course costs are enormous in the UK ... when you live on the dole!

 

[Highflyer_GP]

Do the maths...

SA, the working week is 42Hrs,
UK its 37.5Hrs

The basic conditions of employment act states that the maximum number of hours is 45 (unless mutually agreed upon by both parties). If your company is forcing you to work for more than you're supposed to without you agreeing to it (irrespective of whether you'll be compensated or not), you have a legal right to say no without facing termination. Since this applies to the maximum number, it's safe to assume that not everybody is forced to work 45 hours, and therefore the average is probably less than 42.

I'm not sure what the law says in the UK, so I cannot comment on the accuracy of it being 37.5 hours.

 

[lion_fish]

LOL!! Mistake #1

dont convert R and £ - You totally misinterpret the 'Scale of Economies' . (ask Telkom about that thing)

If you earn £3000 per month.. is a £150 a year going to bankrupt you for a MOT and Road Tax? btw, its not £1 a litre... its £1.06

I just got myself a new car... £8000 for a 1.6 Zetec Ford focus (0KM on the clock) you do that in SA...

Of course costs are enormous in the UK ... when you live on the dole!

Exactly!

Traffic in the cities is NOTHING compared to SA. Id take UK traffic anyday. People actually respect the rules of the road.

As for the Car prices, when you earn in pounds cars are cheap new and you can get a decent 2nd hand car for £1000 or less!

Petrol is also not controlled so certain petrol stations are cheaper, i can get it for £1.01 a litre but also remember (£0.35 is petrol, the other £0.65+ is goverment road tax that goes to fixing the road. AND IT ACTUALLY GETS FIXED (sometimes within a few hours!!!).

 

[Ricard]

I'm not sure what the law says in the UK, so I cannot comment on the accuracy of it being 37.5 hours.

There are 2 rates... office and industrial employees. Geeks are in the office category and thats typically a 9 to 5 job. (with 1 hr lunch). Another aspect with IT people is that the broadband speeds are awesome and many people work from home where possible.