iTunes and Apple rant

[cerebus]

This. I am not really a tablet person. I play the odd game of scrabble on our older iPad but thats about it. For the most part, I use PC's and my wifes MBP. My daughters use theirs a lot (games, netflix, internet, etc).

I actually think that iTunes works very well for the average user. It didn't take me long to get the video clips into it. My complaint is with the iPad linking to only one iTunes library. It's absurd. There is no reason for it to exist. It's not a technical limitation, it a limitation put in by Apple to control the device.

Okay so just think about the flipside of it. In Android, there is NO unified content management software of any sort, so they neatly bypass this whole 'closed garden' debate by not giving you any garden at all (and if you fear the cloud, Android is ALL cloud). If there was, how do you as a technical person think it could work? How does anybody synchronise one device with multiple devices at the same time? It's a definitional impossibility. As soon as one syncs, the other goes out of sync. So when you introduce any kind of management hub for your devices, you run into this problem. iTunes does have drag and drop ability as we've seen; it just doesn't have multi-sync. Only I'm not sure how multi-sync could ever work.

 

[bwana]

The crazy thing is that I build cloud software yet I am very nervous of it. I would never sync my photos/videos/etc into any cloud, be it drop box, iCloud or Google. I back up in the cloud but everything is encrypted.

I have had similar problems with various devices. It's really annoying when companies release products and either don't test them properly or make assumptions about what they can do in your environment.

Considering the number of iCloud devices I have, including my Macbook, cloud syncing is an absolute pleasure. For example if I make a change to one contact I know it's going to be changed on all my devices, my bookmarks are also always available.

That it does. Some people are anal over how their music in particular, is arranged

I suppose iTunes is no match for OCD.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Okay so just think about the flipside of it. In Android, there is NO unified content management software of any sort, so they neatly bypass this whole 'closed garden' debate by not giving you any garden at all (and if you fear the cloud, Android is ALL cloud). If there was, how do you as a technical person think it could work? How does anybody synchronise one device with multiple devices at the same time? It's a definitional impossibility. As soon as one syncs, the other goes out of sync. So when you introduce any kind of management hub for your devices, you run into this problem. iTunes does have drag and drop ability as we've seen; it just doesn't have multi-sync. Only I'm not sure how multi-sync could ever work.

Yep, exactly what I said. Just the idea alone (multisyncing accounts on a single device) is a nightmare at present. I think that this is why Google have implemented the restricted users aspect of Android 4.3.

 

[Abe]

Okay so just think about the flipside of it. In Android, there is NO unified content management software of any sort, so they neatly bypass this whole 'closed garden' debate by not giving you any garden at all (and if you fear the cloud, Android is ALL cloud). If there was, how do you as a technical person think it could work? How does anybody synchronise one device with multiple devices at the same time? It's a definitional impossibility. As soon as one syncs, the other goes out of sync. So when you introduce any kind of management hub for your devices, you run into this problem. iTunes does have drag and drop ability as we've seen; it just doesn't have multi-sync. Only I'm not sure how multi-sync could ever work.

Syncing across multiple devices is actually quite easy from a technical standpoint. It only becomes a problem when the same item is modified on two different devices. When talking about media, that almost never happens. When a conflict occurs, the user could just be prompted to identify the correct version.

I can copy movies onto my daughters android tablets and play them without any hassles. I am not sure why you say they are all cloud.

Let me switch your question around. Why can I copy photos onto the iPad from different devices? How does it handle that but not handle movies?

 

[Maverick Jester]

Let me switch your question around. Why can I copy photos onto the iPad from different devices? How does it handle that but not handle movies?

iTunes Store DRM policies. Apple assume all media that you consume has been purchased through iTunes, which is why Photos are of no concern...

Generalising, yes, but that's basically the crux of it.

 

[Abe]

Yep, exactly what I said. Just the idea alone (multisyncing accounts on a single device) is a nightmare at present. I think that this is why Google have implemented the restricted users aspect of Android 4.3.

I am sure it is. Its a bit unfair though to compare the two (your previous post). My experience on our iPad seems to tie the device to only one account. Android allows multiple accounts. If you want to compare the walled approach you should compare a single user account on android to the apple system. I need to play a bit with the restricted users (I need to put them on because they kids say yes to anything that pops up) and see how it's handled.

They way I have always built software is this. Give the person an easy way to do something but also have an advanced version. If they want enough rope to hang themselves then that is fine. I should be able to access the file system if I want to as an expert user.

 

[cerebus]

Syncing across multiple devices is actually quite easy from a technical standpoint. It only becomes a problem when the same item is modified on two different devices. When talking about media, that almost never happens. When a conflict occurs, the user could just be prompted to identify the correct version.

If you have 2 totally different libraries, how do you sync them together? Add them all in a jumble, creating one meta-library? Then how does it get re-managed back to iTunes? You're thinking on far too small a level. People have hundreds of gigabytes of music alone on their PC's these days. Sure it's easy enough to just go ahead and whack it all together, but to do it properly is a whole other story.

I can copy movies onto my daughters android tablets and play them without any hassles. I am not sure why you say they are all cloud.

That's just raw drag and drop media files. Nothing synchronised, nothing managed at all. Easy as cake, so long as your media players have the codecs. When I had my Sony tablet I spent like 2 weeks trying to get a media player with the right codecs but that's another story altogether. But when it comes to managing data and ownership, Android has nothing except the cloud. It does a good job of that though.

Let me switch your question around. Why can I copy photos onto the iPad from different devices? How does it handle that but not handle movies?

It does handle movies perfectly well, just not on the stock movies app. Get another app, which will in any case be 10x better, and it couldn't be simpler: drag-drop-play. Stock Movies, well yeah I reckon they could have done it better. I literally have never used the Movies app on my iPad.

 

[Abe]

iTunes Store DRM policies. Apple assume all media that you consume has been purchased through iTunes, which is why Photos are of no concern...

Generalising, yes, but that's basically the crux of it.

Ahh, so they want to copyright my video clips now

Seriously though, I thought that they stored those sorts of things in encrypted form. Another case where DRM trumps the consumer. MS is famous for doing that sort of stuff.

 

[Abe]

If you have 2 totally different libraries, how do you sync them together? Add them all in a jumble, creating one meta-library? Then how does it get re-managed back to iTunes? You're thinking on far too small a level. People have hundreds of gigabytes of music alone on their PC's these days. Sure it's easy enough to just go ahead and whack it all together, but to do it properly is a whole other story.

Definitely not thinking on a small level. I am talking about syncing terabytes of storage. We do it all of the time in our software. There are lots of options. I can't go into too much detail because it would be exposing IP but if we could figure it out, I don't see why the millions of engineers at Apple couldn't.

That's just raw drag and drop media files. Nothing synchronised, nothing managed at all. Easy as cake, so long as your media players have the codecs. When I had my Sony tablet I spent like 2 weeks trying to get a media player with the right codecs but that's another story altogether. But when it comes to managing data and ownership, Android has nothing except the cloud. It does a good job of that though.

I had to convert the video clips to play on the iPad using handbrake. That's an application or a licensing issue, not a cloud issue.

 

[bwana]

I had to convert the video clips to play on the iPad using handbrake. That's an application or a licensing issue, not a cloud issue.

Or, as it's been mentioned, you use something like VLC and don't worry about codecs etc.

 

[Fudzy]

GoodPlayer Pro will download movies for you.

 

[cerebus]

Definitely not thinking on a small level. I am talking about syncing terabytes of storage. We do it all of the time in our software. There are lots of options. I can't go into too much detail because it would be exposing IP but if we could figure it out, I don't see why the millions of engineers at Apple couldn't.

We also have huge levels of synchronisation, but we don't work with Joe-just-bought-an-iPhone expecting him to know or have the patience to work with all the options you're presenting. If it's so simple though, why doesn't Google do it? All the criticism of Apple's approach but there is literally NO approach at Google. It's 'here's the filesystem, now it's your problem'.

I had to convert the video clips to play on the iPad using handbrake. That's an application or a licensing issue, not a cloud issue.

That's because Movies sucks. How clear can I make this? It's really not a very good app at all. It's about as good as native Windows Media Player is on PC. Get AVPlayer or VLC on your other iPad and give it a try. No conversion needed. They're as close to universal as you can hope for.

 

[Maverick Jester]

I am sure it is. Its a bit unfair though to compare the two (your previous post). My experience on our iPad seems to tie the device to only one account. Android allows multiple accounts. If you want to compare the walled approach you should compare a single user account on android to the apple system. I need to play a bit with the restricted users (I need to put them on because they kids say yes to anything that pops up) and see how it's handled.

But this is why I mentioned that Google are making inroads into their multiple-account-per-device allowance. To sync various accounts, their respective apps, emails, music, videos, documents etc. onto one device with no real level of differentiation is a nightmare.

You are comparing account syncing with file management across the different devices. Not the same thing.

FWIW- copying files to Android is way easier, and why I dislike iTunes. But the other side of the coin- the data, media and account management aspect interwoven with your iTunes account- is unmatched in Android. The biggest Android vendor, Samsung, tried to clone it with that rubbish called Kies.

BTW- I am an Android user, and to be honest, have no issue with Google's approach to account management, especially when compared to the Apple equivalent. The ecosystems are totally different, it wouldn't be comparing oranges to oranges.

They way I have always built software is this. Give the person an easy way to do something but also have an advanced version. If they want enough rope to hang themselves then that is fine. I should be able to access the file system if I want to as an expert user.

iTunes is not just about file transferring to your iDevices. It is a single point for all media, because that is how the Apple ecosystem works. Android leverages off of your current data, Apple sets out to be the central point of it.

 

[cerebus]

But this is why I mentioned that Google are making inroads into their multiple-account-per-device allowance. To sync various accounts, their respective apps, emails, music, videos, documents etc. onto one device with no real level of differentiation is a nightmare.

You are comparing account syncing with file management across the different devices. Not the same thing.

FWIW- copying files to Android is way easier, and why I dislike iTunes. But the other side of the coin- the data, media and account management aspect interwoven with your iTunes account- is unmatched in Android. The biggest Android vendor, Samsung, tried to clone it with that rubbish called Kies.

BTW- I am an Android user, and to be honest, have no issue with Google's approach to account management, especially when compared to the Apple equivalent. The ecosystems are totally different, it wouldn't be comparing oranges to oranges.



iTunes is not just about file transferring to your iDevices. It is a single point for all media, because that is how the Apple ecosystem works. Android leverages off of your current data, Apple sets out to be the central point of it.

Yeah that's exactly it. You can rant against the way Apple does things or you can sit down for a while and try to figure out the business logic and consumer-facing logic that led them to make those decisions. Same goes for Android. And in fairness iTunes can be a pain to work with as it's built from some quite aged architecture, and it's become so big that it barely holds together as a single product. It definitely needs a good teardown.

 

[Abe]

But this is why I mentioned that Google are making inroads into their multiple-account-per-device allowance. To sync various accounts, their respective apps, emails, music, videos, documents etc. onto one device with no real level of differentiation is a nightmare.

Googles equivalent to the apple sandbox would be Google drive.

You are comparing account syncing with file management across the different devices. Not the same thing.

Definitely not the same thing but there is no reason why you can't have both.

FWIW- copying files to Android is way easier, and why I dislike iTunes. But the other side of the coin- the data, media and account management aspect interwoven with your iTunes account- is unmatched in Android. The biggest Android vendor, Samsung, tried to clone it with that rubbish called Kies.

Kies, arrgh, now youv'e ruined the friendship

iTunes is not just about file transferring to your iDevices. It is a single point for all media, because that is how the Apple ecosystem works. Android leverages off of your current data, Apple sets out to be the central point of it.

I think the problem is that We are talking about different things. The newer Apple model is icloud which is exactly the same as google drive (in principle). iTunes is a baby version of that. It doesn't need the cloud. Its a distributed cloud across a few devices. By the time google released android, that model was less relevant so they opted for the lower maintenance file system. My point on that side is that there is no reason (that benefits the consumer) for Apple not to give access to the file system or to allow syncing to multiple devices.

 

[Abe]

We also have huge levels of synchronisation, but we don't work with Joe-just-bought-an-iPhone expecting him to know or have the patience to work with all the options you're presenting. If it's so simple though, why doesn't Google do it? All the criticism of Apple's approach but there is literally NO approach at Google. It's 'here's the filesystem, now it's your problem'.

Syncing does not require any user interaction. Companies are already doing this sort of stuff with cloud based storage. Take a look for hybrid cloud solutions. You have a set of rules and the only time you need to interact with a user is when the same object is modified in two places before a sync takes place. Even that can be easily solved through virtualization.

There is a semblance of it on the android devices with their account concept. I am guessing that they didn't do any work on the client side because firstly, they don't want people to be creating little sandboxes that are offline and secondly, because they didn't see a point in expending energy on that more dated model.

I will still go back to what I said previously. If Apple can do it with photos, they can do it with videos.

That's because Movies sucks. How clear can I make this? It's really not a very good app at all. It's about as good as native Windows Media Player is on PC. Get AVPlayer or VLC on your other iPad and give it a try. No conversion needed. They're as close to universal as you can hope for.

I put diceplayer on my daughters tablets and that worked an any media type that I had, which granted, is not a lot. My point is that you can't complain about X not supporting media type Z when the iPad has the same problem. It's not a cloud issue, it's an application issue.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Googles equivalent to the apple sandbox would be Google drive.

Not entirely. Drive does not hold application data and rosters, purchase history, linked device information, etc. Drive is more similar to Dropbox than iTunes.

Definitely not the same thing but there is no reason why you can't have both.

You do get both. Apple just merge the two aspects together because of the way that their ecosystem works. It doesn't mean that they are dependent on one another, though.

Kies, arrgh, now youv'e ruined the friendship

I hated Kies with a burning passion. Friendship fixed?

I think the problem is that We are talking about different things. The newer Apple model is icloud which is exactly the same as google drive (in principle). iTunes is a baby version of that. It doesn't need the cloud. Its a distributed cloud across a few devices. By the time google released android, that model was less relevant so they opted for the lower maintenance file system. My point on that side is that there is no reason (that benefits the consumer) for Apple not to give access to the file system or to allow syncing to multiple devices.

No, I disagree. I think it is because, to an extent, you misunderstand the Apple ecosystem and it's relevance to why iTunes is the default point of file transfer requirements.

I do agree with the comparison of iTunes to a "baby version" of the Google ecosystem- at a microcosmic high level, it is. But there are certain measures and controls that differentiate the two in a big way. Which is why I disagree with the Google Drive comparison.

For example- the Google ecosystem can run on any device- Android, iOS, Blackberry, PC, tablet, etc. The iTunes one cannot.

iTunes is a large media repository and distribution point for your Apple device. You purchase the relevant content from iTunes, in addition to it managing what you already have. It becomes your central point of control, and your entire set of habits and customs towards media consumption, is ideally focused in and around iTunes, and the overlaying hardware that it manages. Google does the exact opposite with their ecosystem.

Play Music and Videos are starting to incorporate iOS-esque features in Android. But even then, they don't seek to control the media you own and use, and stick those features to Android alone, because it would create restrictions across the other platforms that does not tie into their ecosystem model.

So this is why I prefer to dissociate file system access and transferring, with account syncing and management- they are mutually independent of one another. Apple and Google's reasons for applying their different file system access policies, differ as a result.

So it kind of comes back to what I initially said- iTunes is not for you (it isn't for everyone, myself included), and you should move over to Android. It gives you the freedom that you prefer. Using Apple devices to the fullest encourages a lifestyle change- in terms of the way you consume media, and the hardware that you use to consume this media. I think that those running a full suite of Apple hardware would agree that the interoperability of Apple's different hardware products, is second to none, and is a lifestyle choice to accept and utilise.

 

[cerebus]

Syncing does not require any user interaction. Companies are already doing this sort of stuff with cloud based storage. Take a look for hybrid cloud solutions. You have a set of rules and the only time you need to interact with a user is when the same object is modified in two places before a sync takes place. Even that can be easily solved through virtualization.

There is a semblance of it on the android devices with their account concept. I am guessing that they didn't do any work on the client side because firstly, they don't want people to be creating little sandboxes that are offline and secondly, because they didn't see a point in expending energy on that more dated model.

Whoa now you're talking about two totally different kinds of syncing here. One is core data which doesn't require interaction at all. That's handled already by Apple fairly well in iCloud. It could be better and there's a fair number of developer complaints but it's in place at least. But this kind of syncing is media and content, and that requires an enormous overhead from the user no matter what. If you have two conflicting libraries you literally need to ask the user what they want to do in every instance where there could be a potential issue, or else you'll end up duplicating and spamming up and creating basically junk in their music folder.

In my case for instance I've painstakingly labelled all of my ministry messages and spoken word into categories and albums and so forth by hand. Now you go and sync with another computer and what's going to happen to all of that? It's all going to go straight to hell that's what.

I will still go back to what I said previously. If Apple can do it with photos, they can do it with videos.

Yeah they could open the Movies app up to drag and drop. It would create issues with purchased movies though. It's a fairly thickheaded implementation though, I'm not disagreeing with you. Just that there are very straightforward ways around it.

I put diceplayer on my daughters tablets and that worked an any media type that I had, which granted, is not a lot. My point is that you can't complain about X not supporting media type Z when the iPad has the same problem. It's not a cloud issue, it's an application issue.

I'm complaining about the iPad Movies application, same as you are. It's really not great. It's hardly more than a portal to the iTunes movies store.

I think the problem is that We are talking about different things. The newer Apple model is icloud which is exactly the same as google drive (in principle).

Heavens no. That's totally wrong. Google Drive is like Dropbox. You sync files and folders over the cloud. iCloud is for syncing core data - think game saves, contacts, photostreams, application settings, purchased apps, that sort of thing.

My point on that side is that there is no reason (that benefits the consumer) for Apple not to give access to the file system or to allow syncing to multiple devices.

There's plenty of reason. If you can manage user data without needing to gain file system access, you protect the device from a host of potential issues. For that matter, Android doesn't actually give you full file system access out of the box - you need to root it to get that. What they do is partition off a visible chunk that's dedicated to media, and leave the OS file system guarded off.

But more importantly, the iOS file system is extremely difficult to navigate. It's all based around a Unix structure. Content is located with the application, so you can't just shunt things around. It's very easy to break and I have broken things by not knowing what I was doing in there.

 

[IceDreama]

Please see my most recent post before launching your attack. I am not an android user. We have more apple devices at the house than android ones (MBP, iPhone, iPad vs 2 x nexus 7's). It seems like that's the standard response. Insult the person.

This was not an attack on you. It was a comment I made based on the posts of hundreds of Android users all over the web.

I stand by what I said but apologise if you thought it was an attack on you.

 

[IceDreama]

Yet in the same statement you say this:



Not everyone enjoys this method, especially when you already have your different media categorised and sorted to your preference. And clearly you don't know much about how transferring files to Android works, either...

Ummm... I've got a Nexus 7 and Nexus 4 so I do actually know how transferring works. Please do me a favour and try copy 2 file at the same time but separately. It will crash and your device disconnects. So you have to copy something from one folder and then wait for that to copy and then copy something else. iTunes negates this completely.