Java Cafe / Viva Computers Warning

[ShockG]

Don't agree with the 2nd part righ at the end. In any CPU, you can have no short circuit of the kind that was first implied. Short circuit would instantly lead to part failure and I have not read otherwise upto now.

"short-circuit" current which momentarily flows between the supply voltage and ground when the CMOS gates switch" is true but not sure if that's where most of the heat comes from.

An increase in heat causes an increase in electron movement/collision. therefor an increase in electron movement would result in an increase in heat.

 

[Prometheus]

Don't agree with the 2nd part righ at the end. In any CPU, you can have no short circuit of the kind that was first implied. Short circuit would instantly lead to part failure and I have not read otherwise upto now.

Well, the short circuit I described in the second part was actually the one which I first had in mind since I can't think of any other.

"short-circuit" current which momentarily flows between the supply voltage and ground when the CMOS gates switch" is true but not sure if that's where most of the heat comes from.

According to this piece it is the second cause for heat generation. The first one being charging and discharging the capacitance at each gates output. Now, I have never heard of capacitors being connected at gate outputs. Maybe what he is referring to is the natural capacitance across the gate input and the supply. This could account for a substantial current flow and also heat generation. The third cause is the leakage current flowing through the circuit which is minimal and can effectively be left out. I'm not sure how the charging current for such small transistors can overtake the short circuit current. It might be possible, but I would still put money on the short circuit current being the major cause of heat dissipation.

An increase in heat causes an increase in electron movement/collision. therefor an increase in electron movement would result in an increase in heat.

Umm, is that the chicken and egg scenario I mentioned where an increase in temperature causes an increase in heat generation and vice versa?

 

[me]

Interesting article you referenced there. Seems that the reason for increasing voltages is to increase the rate of state changes at gates, which I guess is limited by the natural but small capacitance that transistors have.

An increase in heat causes an increase in electron movement/collision. therefor an increase in electron movement would result in an increase in heat.

My understanding is that as electrons bump into each other, they release some of their kinetic energy _as_ heat, so they actually "slow down". Energy can only be converted from one form to another. It's the higher voltage that makes them move faster.

 

[ShockG]

Fine.
I suppose we all saying the same thing but just stated differently.
I can't even remember now what this thread was about, but I suppose it dont matter much at this point.

 

[Prometheus]

Interesting article you referenced there. Seems that the reason for increasing voltages is to increase the rate of state changes at gates, which I guess is limited by the natural but small capacitance that transistors have.

In effect yes. The transistor acts like a capacitor. The charging of this capacitance affects its state. The higher the voltage the quicker the capacitance gets charged and the quicker it changes state. But the higher voltage also brings noise levels down to acceptable levels.

Now what was this thread about? Oh yes, I think the Biostar boards are actually quite good from what I've heard. Maybe someone just shocked the poor thing. I think I actually killed a board that way. Very interesting since the author of the book I got that CMOS explanation from have handled devices for decades without taking any elaborate precautions against static discharges and he, together with a few others has never zapped any device that way.

 

[me]

Hmm it must depend on the static charge of the brain, which is a lot like a van de Graaff generator. When you put a RAM stick in, empty the mind by meditating first, and you'll be safe.

Apparently a whole batch of chips was bad.

 

[ShockG]

The reason the lessar known brands and some high profile ones like Gigabyte get it wrong is because they are out of touch with the community they are trying to sell too.

Take Gigabyte fr example. I'ts been years now since gigabyte had a useful AMD board. Their DPS technology is just an extra cost and adds nothing to the overclocking headroom of the board or CPU. Take any Abit/DFI board of the rack and it'll give the gigabyte pants.

Another brand that suffers from faulty thinking is ECS. All their S939 boards can't maintain an Ht speed of above 250MHz. So that means if you buy an Athlon64 3000+/ X2 3800+ you're limited to 2.23 and 2.5GHz which is to say rather dissapoiting.
Chaintech is another mobo manufacturer that lost the plot completely. They were doing well until their VNF4 parts which were just rubbish.

As for killing components through static, I've never killed ay thing that way. I've dropped parts, stepped on them, and knowcled them over, but not one single component has died from static. Suppose some people drag their feet or are just not careful.

 

[Prometheus]

I'm not exactly 100% sure if it was static. The thing was working although going to one of the BIOS setting pages caused it to crash. I was planning to do a BIOS update on the next boot up as I had just finished setting up my new pc, but suddenly it didn't want to boot. Blank screen and not even a beep from the speaker to indicate any error. Talk about bad luck. It was promised to my niece, but all I have now is a Duron, Graphics card and Sound card without a motherboard to give her until I find another motherboard.

 

[DaGGa BuNNy]

They sell such cheap **** brands. BIOSTAR (WTF BRAND), Chaintech (DONT waste your time), they dont sell quality like Gigabyte,Asus and know brands, instead we get dodgy chinese ****

 

[ShockG]

You need to stay of the weed cause yo're clearly not very bright when you're not high and it becomes very tragic when you're high.

they dont sell quality like Gigabyte

instead we get dodgy chinese ****

You clearly are at the forfront of human genetic failure.
FYI All motherboards are manufactured in the east!

 

[nGAGEd55]

They sell such cheap **** brands. BIOSTAR (WTF BRAND), Chaintech (DONT waste your time), they dont sell quality like Gigabyte,Asus and know brands, instead we get dodgy chinese ****

FYI, ASUS and Gigabyte are both also Taiwanese manufacturers like Chaintech and Biostar

 

[Prometheus]

Oh boy, this is a real soap opera. This place is really becoming a circus. Should fire all the mods and appoint ringmasters instead.

 

[pupa]

FYI, ASUS and Gigabyte are both also Taiwanese manufacturers like Chaintech and Biostar

Yeh only small difference is that ASUS and Gigabyte put engineering effort and design technology in their development where some of the others base their designs on reference designs with poor development and quality control for that matter!

 

[me]

I tell you what I hate most about all those manufacturers -- the software they bundle with their boards. WHY OH WHY do they have to decorate their "SupaQuik OverClok" apps with all that 3D lumpiness?

This PC Probe thing from ASUS is about the only mobo software I haven't regretted installing, and even it managed to annoy me with 3Dness and sound effects. Thank _GOD_ the Chinese don't make operating systems.

 

[ShockG]

Hmm.
Best A64 board of all time = DFI NF4 SLI-D/DR/Venus/Expert
Deisgned by: Oscar Wu
And he is: Asian!
Before DFI he was at: Abit
At that time Abit had: Best nForce2 board ever (NF7-S) designed by:
Oscar Wu!

So dont be saying things like that people, its unfair and rather racist.
Every single component in your PC right now is Aisan, apart from the CPU which is likely made in Germany or some other Eastern European country.
Largest Memory Manufacturer in the Wolrd : Samsung (Korean)
2nd Largest Memory Manufacturer in the world: Hyundai (Korean)
Most influencial counsumer electronics company in the world: Sony (Japan)
Best selling console ever: Sony (Japan)
CEO of number1 graphics card manufacturer: JHS (Japanese)
Largest Ship manufacturer in the world: Hyundai (Korean)
Largest Electronics company in the world: Samsung (Korean)
Company responsible for VHS broadcast standard: Victor/JVC (Japan)
Number1 manufacturer of LCD\Plasma screens leader in DLP technology: Samsung (Korean)
Largest Film Studio Holder: Sony (Paramount/Columbia/Tri-star/New-Line etc...) Sony once again is: Japan
I could go on forever.
Point is, Jpn and much more recently Korea, were where China is today in terms of engineering quality\capabilities. And I bet you within 5years you'll be singing a different tune in regards to China.
=========================================================
Statements like some that have been made by some here are really pathetic and narrow minded. I'm not an advocate for China nor do I particularly care about the place, but to have South African's comment on the engineering\bild quality of Cinese products while we don't even have one Fab in the country is laughable at best and downright retarded any other time.

It was within my lifetime when Korea got its first Semi-conductor machine And today Giants like LG/Samsung/Hyundai and others spawned form that.
South Africa manufactures nothing at all but only consumes. Its appaling what passes for a Computer Technician in South Africa, and out of all that some find it in within their rights to to habour such sentiments towards Chinese products which actually exist. Its disgusting actually!

Make something useful first then talk until then South Afircans should learn to shut the #uck up because its embarrasing how useless we are in Computer/Electrical engineering!

ATI C1/Xenos (Powering XBOx 360)/ NV_2A(Powering X_BOX1)/ALL your graphics cards, where do you think those GPU's come from? TSMC which is in the east.
=============================
And Pupa, exactly what is a refrence design for a motherboard?
nVidia sell core logic only and don't make any motherboards at all. That goes for VIA and SiS and to a large part Intel also. So where and which is this reference motherboard design.
And if you can find it, what exaclty is wrong with it?
Quickest 7800GT in the country right now is a refrence design part with an nvidia emblem at the back. All other ones don't even come close to the performance or overclocking headroom. And it's a Legend (Chinese) Card!

And to count Gigabyte in the same sentence as quality is really a joke. They made mundane motherboards long ago and now their down right useless.
In the years I've spent benching I've only ever seen one Gigabyte board make number1 and that was in the AGP days of 939. Look again today and you'll find DFI/Abit and sometimes Asus. (Aopen as well with YdX board! for Merom)

Gigabyte...please!
<_<

 

[Prometheus]

Yes SA does suck when it comes to manufacturing any type of product, but I think the education standards are very good. Some of the best engineers and technicians are actually from here. The problem we have is that there isn't any opportunities for anyone in this country. Everyone is leaving the country in search of better opportunities. What we need is more investment in technology. Other countries are ready to spend billions on particle accelerators and such stuff and what do we have to show for all the effort going into providing that tax money? Absolutely f*k*l. 'Cause it either gets wasted or it magically disappears into that void the politicians and council members are so familiar with. This country is going down the drain a little bit more every day. Any foreign investment entering the coountry can't seem to leave here fast enough. I don't have any hope left for this country.

 

[WatchDog]

Statements like some that have been made by some here are really pathetic and narrow minded. I'm not an advocate for China nor do I particularly care about the place, but to have South African's comment on the engineering\bild quality of Cinese products while we don't even have one Fab in the country is laughable at best and downright retarded any other time.

Sorry, but I can't let this type of 'argument' slip by without a comment. As customers we have a right to differentiate between high and low quality products. Whether we have fabs in RSA or not is irrelevant!

It was within my lifetime when Korea got its first Semi-conductor machine And today Giants like LG/Samsung/Hyundai and others spawned form that.
South Africa manufactures nothing at all but only consumes. Its appaling what passes for a Computer Technician in South Africa, and out of all that some find it in within their rights to to habour such sentiments towards Chinese products which actually exist. Its disgusting actually!

Make something useful first then talk until then South Afircans should learn to shut the #uck up because its embarrasing how useless we are in Computer/Electrical engineering!

I also remember when the words "Made in Japan" were a reason not to make the purchase. Now their products are sought after and have almost been priced out of the market.

I ALWAYS seem to have issues with Chinese products. Most particularly those which were designed as well as manufactured in the PRC. So long as some dumb fu*ks are paid tuppence to work in a miserable airless factory for 12 hours a day they will turn out cr*p quality. I have seen this recently in Apple computers where a large number have been reported as faulty - as high as 20 - 25%. To me this is just unacceptible. To say we/I cannot pass comment is like saying I can't comment on a painting because I cannot paint!!

 

[ShockG]

That's the thing. These are not paintings.
This as you say is how Japan started, note the word "started"
Korea got better and so will China, while SA will stay pathetic.
Defending SA will not help it at all.

So long as some dumb fu*ks are paid tuppence to work in a miserable airless factory for 12 hours a day they will turn out cr*p quality

Yes call them names for being able to make computer hardware. That they are underpaid is not their fault entirely. They may be dumb f**ks but these dumb f**ks have the quickest 3DM2K1 score in the world GeForce 7900GT class (highest 3DM2K1 score in the country). So as dumb as they are they have done something of note. But the genius that is you has done f**kall!

No Sir I think you are the dumb f**k
Its always easy to break down, but not to build up right!

 

[pupa]

Yes SA does suck when it comes to manufacturing any type of product, but I think the education standards are very good. Some of the best engineers and technicians are actually from here. The problem we have is that there isn't any opportunities for anyone in this country. Everyone is leaving the country in search of better opportunities. What we need is more investment in technology. Other countries are ready to spend billions on particle accelerators and such stuff and what do we have to show for all the effort going into providing that tax money? Absolutely f*k*l. 'Cause it either gets wasted or it magically disappears into that void the politicians and council members are so familiar with. This country is going down the drain a little bit more every day. Any foreign investment entering the country can't seem to leave here fast enough. I don't have any hope left for this country.

First the comment about schooling and Engineers is no more, it is disappearing fast. Stuffed up by the GVT as so many other things. We will see in future. Remember the British nurses disaster exercise? There is a few others but that's beyond the point! Any way IMHO the GVT should invest in building infrastructure to use our own resources. Why export our minerals cheap and then import final product at a huge cost if it should be cheaper to manufacture locally and export! We can manufacture mother boards locally IMHO. The problem is the cost of labour but surely that is offset by the gains of employment and business that will develop around such a industry! What happened to our own Silicon valley, that was mentioned at an stage!

 

[WatchDog]

Look, anyone can be trained to solder together some bits of electronics. The Japs have robots doing that anyway. When Chinese engineers actually design something instead of copying it (military hardware is a good example) then give me a shout. Until then I'll try avoid anything "Made in PRC".