Java Question

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sumacveneneux

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Hello the Forum,

I have been busy experimenting, and putting into practice all your advice with great success. I am finding the people I engage with are more open to speaking to me more. So, please can you answer this question?

My trouble is finding Java programmers from junior through to mid/senior. Why is Java such a scarce skill in SA? Where can I find career-minded Java profesionals? I'm stumped :confused::confused::confused:
 
Have you tried contacting universities for junior devs?
My first year and half of my second year was all Java.
 
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Which companies have you tried?
AFAIK, Metropolitan, Sanlam, Old Mutual and Visa have big java teams and then there are smaller IT companies as well.
Sorry, not sure if I am allowed to have named the above companies but please let me know and I'll remove.
 
Hi Alternate,

I have actually been tempting junior Java dev's to Cape Town all year :whistle:, but I can't seem to find intermediates and up! I may have to start visiting people at home, bearing plates of cookies...
 
I'm a junior Java developer. Not currently working in the IT field but I am looking to. Please inbox me your contact details. (Cape Town based)
 
The problem is probably more financial as for people to move to CT(or any other city), they would need to have an extra incentive :)
Maybe try posting your positions in the classifieds section and see what sort of response you get!!
 
Scarce skill and you will struggle finding people where the actual value proposition is right. Most mid-level Java candidates I interviewed, lacked the skill and experience and would not even pass a Oracle Java Associate exam.

I have stopped looking for skilled people and for the last 14 months have hired interns and all started off without any Java knowledge, have gone through the full Oracle certs and are now more productive than some of the staff I hired and eventually had to let go during the probationary period due to skill issues.

Although a company spends significantly more time and effort in the ramp-up, hiring interns and upskilling them seems to be the only viable option for at least me. Failing to see why I would hire snr Java candidates for over 50K when any of my juniors can code circles around them :whistle:
 
MagicDude4Eva said:
Scarce skill and you will struggle finding people where the actual value proposition is right. Most mid-level Java candidates I interviewed, lacked the skill and experience and would not even pass a Oracle Java Associate exam.

I have stopped looking for skilled people and for the last 14 months have hired interns and all started off without any Java knowledge, have gone through the full Oracle certs and are now more productive than some of the staff I hired and eventually had to let go during the probationary period due to skill issues.

Although a company spends significantly more time and effort in the ramp-up, hiring interns and upskilling them seems to be the only viable option for at least me. Failing to see why I would hire snr Java candidates for over 50K when any of my juniors can code circles around them :whistle:
Click to expand...

Hi MagicDude4Eva, I must say that my clients are mandating me more and more to find juniors, for the same reasons you mentioned. From smaller software houses, to larger corporates, the movement seems to be towards a few juniors being trained rather than a single specialist. So, where are the seniors :confused: a mystery indeed!
 
Master of darkness,

As an ex-vaalie, I can promise you that there is plenty of incentives here (If you look past the traffic, out towards the mountain and across the sea :D) BUT I have to add that the financial issues, well they do exist, but, there are also plenty of firms who are willing & able to pay "joburg"'salaries. Generally, higher roles like that will be a head-hunt, rather than sourcing. I have 10 open roles across the IT field taht you will never see advertised. That is because I find people, I don't fill roles :twisted:, aren't I?
 
sumacveneneux said:
Hi MagicDude4Eva, I must say that my clients are mandating me more and more to find juniors, for the same reasons you mentioned. From smaller software houses, to larger corporates, the movement seems to be towards a few juniors being trained rather than a single specialist. So, where are the seniors :confused: a mystery indeed!
Click to expand...

Seniors are sitting tight within Telkom, SBSA, FNB, Nedbank, Discovery and a number of body-shops (BB&D, BCX, EOH) - I think in most cases their career progression is limited (into boring architecture or managerial/exec positions) and salary will cap and only go on inflation increases. Could not convince old peers to leave their jobs even for better pay :-(
 
I've been in the java development industry for 13 years and have worked at perhaps 8 large corporates.
That may result in perhaps 100 colleagues/friends in the java industry over the years.

They're everywhere, my current employer probably has 100 on site.

I shouldn't speak for them but I think most have stopped looking at job ads and ignore recruiters - most new jobs come from ex-colleagues references.
When I look at surveys and advertised salaries, they are well below expectations. It doesn't make sense pursuing these avenues.

You may be 1 recruiter who has a great opportunity, but remember we've been approached by 100's over the years. A lot of ads are simply to lure people into recruiters databases rather than actually having positions available.

Additionally - people look at technologies offered on the job specification, and ads sometimes don't do a good job of it:
1. Any 1 java developer may well be very inadequate for another java position. The sub-technologies and related work is vast.
2. The list of technologies on a spec can influence the response a lot - if a person will be happy developing on a 10 year old tech that isn't going anywhere. We can also tell a lot by the combination of technologies.
3. Sometimes employers are looking for strange things.. eg a combination of strange skill sets - like a difference between a helicopter pilot and a commercial airliner pilot.. okay.. don't shoot me if that's an incorrect analogy.
3. Some adverts are so vague, we don't think the recruiter or employer is very serious. And we live for information.

I'm afraid recruiters have gained a bad reputation over the years .. each time we're approached, we're required to fill out an employment history, go thru background checks, go to a meeting with the recruiter, sign away ridiculous employment rights to a recruiter we've just met. Have you read those forms? Every few years the same recruiter has a new database and new forms, so they want it all done again. All of the small text and form filling and meetings result in being added to a database. That's a day of our time being lost per recruiter. We don't get paid for it. It isn't worth it unless we're in dire need of a new job. Most of us are not. To get a developers attention - you may have to offer something outstanding.

But that's my take.
 
Hi Keill,

Thank you for your comprehensive and well thought out answer. I too have found it to be exactly as you describe. Recruiters absolutely have a bad rep. Being the wife of an IT Guy, and his LinkedIn profile manager, I know exactly what you are talking about. My man gets 3-5 linkedin requests a day, and those who call him, well, they always say they will come back to him after hearing what he earns. Not a single one, to date, has returned the call.

Even though I can't code, I know how the process works, and the tech used for what. So I can understand a technical spec perfectly well. This is why I am doing this research, because I know that if I follow the advise of the forum, I will end up being the one sourcer people will trust. Not because I am good at what I do, but because I will be the best there is in my area of specialisation. I've already decided that.

So. What do I do to gain the trust of the specialists an industry who is sick and tired of mine?
 
sumacveneneux said:
Master of darkness,

As an ex-vaalie, I can promise you that there is plenty of incentives here (If you look past the traffic, out towards the mountain and across the sea :D) BUT I have to add that the financial issues, well they do exist, but, there are also plenty of firms who are willing & able to pay "joburg"'salaries. Generally, higher roles like that will be a head-hunt, rather than sourcing. I have 10 open roles across the IT field taht you will never see advertised. That is because I find people, I don't fill roles :twisted:, aren't I?
Click to expand...

I'm in durbs, so have all of that except the mountain and the traffic :)
I also agree with what keill has said, which is probably why you find most of the seniors are being head hunted.
 
lucifir said:
I'm in durbs, so have all of that except the mountain and the traffic :)
I also agree with what keill has said, which is probably why you find most of the seniors are being head hunted.
Click to expand...

You see, I know I will never be able to tempt you to CT, :cry: curse you tropical paradise!

My mentorship was under a head-hunter, so I've never actually dealt with recruiters. My experience lies more to the business-side, but I've always liked IT more, and this is where I am ultimately specialising. I am already representing a few people, however, having signed 2 new contracts and with another in the pipeline, I would like to add a few more persons talented in whichever career-level they're at. However, I would hate to do the old "can I add you to my connections' spiel, and I just feel that interrupting a coder during the day with an unexpected phone-call pitching a job, is not professional. If I Email, it would as likely end up in the deleted folder as not. That doesn't really leave me with many other options, you see?
 
sumacveneneux said:
You see, I know I will never be able to tempt you to CT, :cry: curse you tropical paradise!

My mentorship was under a head-hunter, so I've never actually dealt with recruiters. My experience lies more to the business-side, but I've always liked IT more, and this is where I am ultimately specialising. I am already representing a few people, however, having signed 2 new contracts and with another in the pipeline, I would like to add a few more persons talented in whichever career-level they're at. However, I would hate to do the old "can I add you to my connections' spiel, and I just feel that interrupting a coder during the day with an unexpected phone-call pitching a job, is not professional. If I Email, it would as likely end up in the deleted folder as not. That doesn't really leave me with many other options, you see?
Click to expand...

:D

I understand your dilemma but unfortunately, without you going through the process of informing people/devs about you, they will never know you exist. So you will have to use some form of communication and then show the devs that you indeed are different.
I personally prefer an initial email followed up with a phone call if I liked what I read in the email and responded to it.
 
lucifir said:
I understand your dilemma but unfortunately, without you going through the process of informing people/devs about you, they will never know you exist. So you will have to use some form of communication and then show the devs that you indeed are different.
I personally prefer an initial email followed up with a phone call if I liked what I read in the email and responded to it.
Click to expand...

Well, I am determined to have that reputation, so I will do what it takes! If you don't mind indulging me, what would the subject line email say that will make you open it instead of binning it?
 
sumacveneneux said:
Well, I am determined to have that reputation, so I will do what it takes! If you don't mind indulging me, what would the subject line email say that will make you open it instead of binning it?
Click to expand...

I'm probably not the best person to ask as I prefer a direct approach, rather than any fancy/sugar coating/marketing hype :)
For me something simple like "Senior Java Developer Required" (or whatever title/role).
 
lucifir said:
I'm probably not the best person to ask as I prefer a direct approach, rather than any fancy/sugar coating/marketing hype :)
For me something simple like "Senior Java Developer Required" (or whatever title/role).
Click to expand...

So, if I understand correctly, at senior level, one expects to be paid one's worth, and salary expectation is not required. I am sure that most seniors are no-nonsense, part and parcel, and the reason why I am doing this research, to not waste my time, or anyone else's.

And on that note, thank you for you kind help, I appreciate it very much!
 
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