Kara Guide

[TheShogun]

here comes the n00b question.

Does threat gain = damage done, by that i mean, if you start doing more damage than the tank will you eventually gain aggro, or does the skills he uses to control aggro have nothing to do with damage done?

No it doesn't work like that. Typically tanks won't do huge DPS (except Pallytanks in SH)

They keep aggro because of abilities that generate additional threat over and above what they generate from damage.

From playing a few aggro sensitive classes (Enchance Shammy pre-2.3, Shadow Priest) I'll have to say Pallytanks have the best Aggro gen out of the 3 tanks.
If the guys knows how to gear he just never loses aggro. It's awesome.
Druid tanks are second with some really good Aggro gen but sadly I tend to find a lot more bad Feral Tanks then Bad Prot Pallies.
Warriors are a resounding last. If I can get a group without a warrior tank I feel a bit better because sadly while they are the best tanking class they have an overabundance of fools who have no idea about threat gen post-BC who think Sunder-Spam is still how it's done.

 

[TheShogun]

Tanks have skills to increase their aggro per damage done.
Defensive stance for instance gives the tank 10% more aggro (thus damage x 110%)
Tanks further have skills that improve aggro without it actualy dealing any damage, A sunder from a warrior for instance would give the warrior 300 aggro equivalent of damage.
By taunting the warrior instantly moves to the top position of the aggro list regardless of his damage done...

Thats not quite right.

You generate 2 threat for every 1 damage dealt which is then modified by talents.

So for example a 30% reduction applied to 100 Damage would mean 140 Threat. (100 Damage * 2 = 200 Threat * 0.7 = 140 threat)

So a Warrior in Defensive Stance doing 100 Damage would generate 220 Threat.

Warrior Taunt is pretty much the best in the game as it makes your Threat equal to the Highest Threat Player on the Targets aggro list.

Feral Taunt works a bit differently though. I think it forces the target to attack you for a certain number of seconds.

Taunt however isn't much use in Raids as almost every boss is immune to taunt so a Warrior for example would need to use Devestate/Sunder/Revenge/Shield Slam/etc to generate aggro.

 

[Oculate]

U'd draw aggro from about 50% more threat than tank, at least with my pet it is, if hes doing 10k threat, and if i did 15k threat and over aggro

<3 FD tho, dodging repair bills ftw

Frenzied Regen can be an imba threat maker fro druids, all that healing on the tank skyrockets the druid

 

[werries2]

Thats not quite right.

You generate 2 threat for every 1 damage dealt which is then modified by talents.

So for example a 30% reduction applied to 100 Damage would mean 140 Threat. (100 Damage * 2 = 200 Threat * 0.7 = 140 threat)

So a Warrior in Defensive Stance doing 100 Damage would generate 220 Threat.

Warrior Taunt is pretty much the best in the game as it makes your Threat equal to the Highest Threat Player on the Targets aggro list.

Feral Taunt works a bit differently though. I think it forces the target to attack you for a certain number of seconds.

Taunt however isn't much use in Raids as almost every boss is immune to taunt so a Warrior for example would need to use Devestate/Sunder/Revenge/Shield Slam/etc to generate aggro.

There is not that much of a difference whether you work it out as 2 threat per 1 dmg or 1 threat per 1 dmg Infact it is exactly the same...
The case of 100 dmg by a tank would give him 110 threat
and the 30% reduction would result in 70% threat....
40 threat difference between tank and dps

220 threat - 140 threat is 80 threat difference /2 = 40 threat


The only case where it is easier to multiply the threat numbers by two would be to calculate healer threat, since 1hp healed would be equivalent to 0.5 threat on my calculation and equivalent to 1 threat on yours...


Feral druid taunt would work the same as the warrior taunt, placing the druid ontop of the meter. I would rank Feral druids above prot paladins any day though, they may not have the initial burst threat as warriors or paladins but since their threat is purely based on damage done they are almost imposiible to overtake in threat later on during long fights.
We however use all 3 types of tanks during our 25 man raids. Pure tank and spank fights with bosses only doing melee, Druids are the king. Magic fights paladins are doing a bit better and warriors seem to be the best balanced tanks for most tank situations.

 

[werries2]

U'd draw aggro from about 50% more threat than tank, at least with my pet it is, if hes doing 10k threat, and if i did 15k threat and over aggro

<3 FD tho, dodging repair bills ftw

Frenzied Regen can be an imba threat maker fro druids, all that healing on the tank skyrockets the druid

Pet hunter aggro works a bit diffferent than tank dps aggro. But if we want to go into more detail it seems like melee dps can grab aggro when over taking the tank by 10% while ranged dps have a bigger margin not sure of exactly how much though...

 

[TheShogun]

There is not that much of a difference whether you work it out as 2 threat per 1 dmg or 1 threat per 1 dmg Infact it is exactly the same...
The case of 100 dmg by a tank would give him 110 threat
and the 30% reduction would result in 70% threat....
40 threat difference between tank and dps

220 threat - 140 threat is 80 threat difference /2 = 40 threat


The only case where it is easier to multiply the threat numbers by two would be to calculate healer threat, since 1hp healed would be equivalent to 0.5 threat on my calculation and equivalent to 1 threat on yours...


Feral druid taunt would work the same as the warrior taunt, placing the druid ontop of the meter. I would rank Feral druids above prot paladins any day though, they may not have the initial burst threat as warriors or paladins but since their threat is purely based on damage done they are almost imposiible to overtake in threat later on during long fights.
We however use all 3 types of tanks during our 25 man raids. Pure tank and spank fights with bosses only doing melee, Druids are the king. Magic fights paladins are doing a bit better and warriors seem to be the best balanced tanks for most tank situations.

True I suppose you could just use a different multiplier.

I'll disagree with you about the Feral threat though. I kno Feral Taunt and Warrior Taunt use totally different mechanics which make the one more viable in certain situations.
I can't get the mechanics from work but i'm sure a look at wowwikki will explain the difference.
As for the threat gen, Feral Tanks have such good Aggro gen because they do much better DPS then a Warr in addition to having good aggro gen abilities. Fairy Fire, Lacerate, Maul, etc are the big threat generating abilities which are essential to keepning aggro.
They don't only use their DPS to keep aggro. I think it might be that misconception that leads some Feral tanks to fail miserably.

Don't get me wrong I love Feral tanks in general because they not as squishy as a pally tank, they have enormous amounts of health and they have good aggro generating abilities I just think Pally tanks generate a bit more aggro with the right gear and lets face it. Pallytanks are hands down the best multi-mob tanks in the game.

I can't wait to see how the DeathKnight tanking will work.
My current theory is that because they don't use shields like a Feral Tank they're also likely to work around a similar system where they compensate with higher health values.
I'm also thinking they're likely to have good old Death Coil life drain as a further compensation.
2 Hander Tanking is going to be hawt.

 

[werries2]

As I am the usual warrior tank I cant exactly say how feral taunt works, but from observation at the fist boss in ZA (bear boss) the taunts seems pretty much the same.
We typicaly would use myself to tank the bear form and a druid to tank the hunanoid form. Now as you know the warrior and druid have to interchange tanking the whole time, so you need to taunt to start tanking when he shifts form. In this shifting the druid would start building 5k-10k more aggro than me (typicaly 4th or so on aggro list due to limited rage) when I taunt I shoot to the top and in the next minute would overtake the druid by 5-10k aggro again. If his taunt then would be just a limited time taunt the boss would switch back to me when it wears off, and it does not...

It can also be that the druid taunt is similar to pet growl where the growl just generate a lot of threat but not nessaserely would make the druid jump to the top?

Will also have to look it up in more detail after work

 

[werries2]

As for your mention that paladins are the undisputable best multi mob tanks, I would totaly agree

Since this was a Kara threat, I'll bring up an example in kara where paladins is so superior it aint even funny

We had a prot pally from day one with us in Kara, and since he got fully geared in T4 we use him as main tank for all bosses but nightbane and prince. The best is when he tanks Moroes, with this paladin tanking moroes we dont even bother with CC, he just pulls the lot and aoe aggro them, then we aoe them all down and our single target dps group would take care of moroes and the mortal strike warrior if he is there.
Quite fun and makes the encounter so much faster.