Language ruling at Free State University

stroller said:
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/ufs-language-policy-is-lawful-concourt-rules-20171229

Will the next step be that Afrikaans will not be the primary language at Afrikaans schools?
I don't think that this will end well.
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It just confirms that the far right were not that paranoid afterall. Personally I think this is just a question of university demographics catching up with reality.

Solidarity has their own private Afrikaans university and given that information is so cheap nowadays, it wont be time before we see more innovation in private education. It is desperately needed.
 
SauRoNZA said:
Why do Afrikaans schools exist at all?

Make the whole lot English.

At least insofar as public schools. Private schools can do what they want.

Same way they should keep religion out of public schools.
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You sound like Lord Alfred Milner. Afrikaans schools exist because a significant part of the country speaks Afrikaans at home and it is scientifically proven that mother tongue education is the best for any child. This is why the French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, all of Europe and any first world country chose to educate their children in their home language. Actually so does the English speaking world. It is also why most of Africa struggles so badly with basic science and technology. conceptualisation takes place at a first rate in your mother tongue.

Japan is a good example, in the 17th century is wanted to modernize, it decided rightfully to accept western science and technology, but not western values and language. Recently most of Asia followed the same model and prospered as a result. I can’t say that the Asian tigers have gotten the wrong formula.

I managed to study heavy technical engineering concepts in 4 different languages (Afrikaans, English, German and French) in both SA and Europe. I could do this not because I was totally fluent in the latter three languages, but because my fundamentals were set in Afrikaans at an early age. It is the difference between understanding and knowing something.

This ruling has once again proven that the South African court system and quite frankly society simply does not take scientific evidence seriously, it constantly falls back on historical guilt. I am personally not an Afriforum fan, but when it comes to education it means that they are spot on.
 
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A significant part of the country? Like less than 5% isn’t it? (Correction I see it’s 13.5%)

Hardly worth the drama.

And I don’t really make the statement against Afrikaans, but rather for English. It should replace all the other native and dying languages as well as a means of education.

You can speak and learn your home language as the word describes it...at home.

FYI I come from an Afrikaans household (mother) with a native level of English (father).

I see no place for it in the modern world. The sooner they make the switch, the sooner it won’t be a mother tongue and the scientific proof you reference, but don’t source becomes irrelevant.

And if only the Asian parts of the world that now have Western overlords (India and related countries that everyone outsourced to) has embraced English they would already have been far ahead in that game.

It’s pretty much the only thing that has stopped the Chinese from taking over the world...nobody understands them, yet.
 
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SauRoNZA said:
A significant part of the country? Like less than 5% isn’t it?

Hardly worth the drama.

FYI I come from an Afrikaans household (mother) with a native level of English (father).

I see no place for it in the modern world. The sooner they make the switch, the sooner it won’t be a mother tongue and the scientific proof you reference, but don’t source becomes irrelevant.
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This is scientifically simply false. There remains a case that at tertiary level there comes a point where you can phase in English. In fact am all for phasing in English alongside Afrikaans. You are depriving a child of a proper deeper understanding by sending him to an English school at an early stage. Very often you find that those kids sit in silence in the class because they can't understand. My brother teaches at a rural school and eventually had to learn Tshwana to get the students to understand mathematics at a deeper level, their averages went up by 20% simply by using a broken language.

Let's also not forget that Afrikaans, especially among Afrikaners have a much deeper historical context and the ANC should not be surprised if actions like these will lead to further nationalism.
 
Nicodeamus said:
This is scientifically simply false. There remains a case that at tertiary level there comes a point where you can phase in English. In fact am all for phasing in English alongside Afrikaans. You are depriving a child of a proper deeper understanding by sending him to an English school at an early stage. Very often you find that those kids sit in silence in the class because they can't understand. My brother teaches at a rural school and eventually had to learn Tshwana to get the students to understand mathematics at a deeper level, their averages went up by 20% simply by using a broken language.
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And what if this switch had been made 10 or 20 years ago?

Do you think they would still have that lack of understanding?

Looking at people who emigrated to non native language countries at a young age I would say certainly not.

It’s a small price to pay in the short term for progress in the long term.

Why wait until tertiary level to basically do a “conversion”? Start it earlier so it can be a generational change and get completely out of the way going forward.
 
SauRoNZA said:
And what if this switch had been made 10 or 20 years ago?

Do you think they would still have that lack of understanding?

Looking at people who emigrated to non native language countries at a young age I would say certainly not.

It’s a small price to pay in the short term for progress in the long term.

Why wait until tertiary level to basically do a “conversion”? Start it earlier so it can be a generational change and get completely out of the way going forward.
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because the science proves that you are wrong. Why do you think black students in SA in general struggles with mathematical literacy? Especially since the entire community that they come from speak English?

Secondly, why do you equate English with progress? This is simply wrong, the Asians students worldwide perform the best in terms of mathematics and science and they all study in their home language. They also outperform native French and English students at their own universities at a later stage, simply because their fundamentals are set in their home language at an early age. Now it is not impossible to sacrifice a few students for some greater English goal, but why should they went Afrikaans education is already available and when it works? Afrikaans students constantly perform at the high levels at Universities. It is obvious that Afrikaans does not hold them back.
 
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You are yet to show me the science...

Maybe once you do that I can take it seriously and look at it objectively.

Until then you are just an oke on the internet making stuff up.
 
SauRoNZA said:
You are yet to show me the science...

Maybe once you do that I can take it seriously and look at it objectively.

Until then you are just an oke on the internet making stuff up.
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UNESCO has done a great deal of information on it

UNESCO has encouraged mother tongue instruction in primary education since 1953 (UNESCO, 1953) and UNESCO highlights the advantages of mother tongue education right from the start: children are more likely to enroll and succeed in school (Kosonen, 2005); parents are more likely to communicate with teachers and participate in their children’s learning (Benson, 2002); girls and rural children with less exposure to a dominant language stay in school longer and repeat grades less often (Hovens, 2002; UNESCO Bangkok, 2005); and children in multilingual education tend to develop better thinking skills compared to their monolingual peers (e.g., Bialystok, 2001; Cummins, 2000; King & Mackey, 2007).
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https://www.globalpartnership.org/blog/children-learn-better-their-mother-tongue

n South Africa and other countries where many pupils do not learn in their home language, curriculum designers have judged the appropriateness of the language in which science is taught by considering whether it is the learners’ mother tongue or not.

Students learning in their mother tongue are generally thought to have an advantage over their counterparts who are being taught in a second or third language.

The general assumption among teachers is that all learning follows through smoothly once learners have attained some proficiency in the language of learning and teaching. But not everyone who is proficient in the language of teaching and learning – for instance, English – excels in science.
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https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/why-language-is-so-important-in-science-teaching/

Also look at the language of instruction of the top GDP per capita countries in the world, it is all in the home language. The European Union nowadays wants each child to be proficient in at least 3 languages. Learning more languages helps a child's cognative development, yet in South Africa and America we are still stuck in the 1 language rule absurdity.

If you're in the mood of reading Afrikaans, then here is a random PDF from the internet on "moedertaal onderig" http://scholar.ufs.ac.za:8080/xmlui.../1309/01louwrens-1.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

It highlights the point from UNESCO.


Now that the science is settled, do you change your mind? It is also just common sense that you form concepts better in your home language, especially during an early stage. As time goes on the difference becomes less significant.
 
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Off topic, but since returning to the states I missed the metric system and use it every chance I can get like when conversing with my foreign coworkers.
 
Nicodeamus said:
UNESCO has done a great deal of information on it



https://www.globalpartnership.org/blog/children-learn-better-their-mother-tongue



https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/06/why-language-is-so-important-in-science-teaching/

Also look at the language of instruction of the top GDP per capita countries in the world, it is all in the home language. The European Union nowadays wants each child to be proficient in at least 3 languages. Learning more languages helps a child's cognative development, yet in South Africa and America we are still stuck in the 1 language rule absurdity.

If you're in the mood of reading Afrikaans, then here is a random PDF from the internet on "moedertaal onderig" http://scholar.ufs.ac.za:8080/xmlui.../1309/01louwrens-1.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

It highlights the point from UNESCO.
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They seem to refer very specifically to primary instruction? Does that amount to primary school or what do they mean by the term exactly?

If it refers to Primary School that makes sense as you would need to lay the foundation for the “business language” to follow later in your studies which would be High School and onwards I reckon.

It’s all about creating a baseline and by High School your ability to understand scientific and mathematical concepts surely shouldn’t be reliant on language any longer?

As for the one language rule, what are you referring to here? We always had two languages as mandatory throughout schooling career.

In my case I had Xhosa as mandatory in primary school which became optional along with German in High School.

Now that the science is settled, do you change your mind? It is also just common sense that you form concepts better in your home language, especially during an early stage. As time goes on the difference becomes less significant.
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I think we are really on the same page here.

That is if “early stage” refers to Primary School.

I have no problem with that as it allows 7 odd years to build another language to the native speaking level.

Then when things gets more serious at High School and Tertiary level switching to the global language of choice makes sense to me not only from a personal but also logistical level from the educators side.
 
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SauRoNZA said:
snip.
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I've said already that at tertiary level the differences becomes minute, in subject such as mathematics and science it makes sense to bridge the high school gap during first year. At some point in life you are going to have to study in English, this is just so blatantly obvious with the Internet.

In 1994 the Gerwel commission recommended that two Universities in the country serve Afrikaans, one in the North and one in the South. Primary schools and high schools require a university to help service the language. My bet is that Akademia will most likely take over this function from the public schools.

Then when things gets more serious at High School and Tertiary level switching to the global language of choice makes sense to me not only from a personal but also logistical level from the educators side.
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In terms of logistics, you are probably right, I don't have the number, but getting a few Translators to assist with the material doesn't cost as much money. Also the schools have a certain feeding area and if that isn't Afrikaans then it doesn't become feasible to have the school.

I don't think anyone is seriously going to get an argument going that English isn't a needed skill in the modern way. My suggestion would be to phase in English education alongside Afrikaans at schools (I think Curro is doing this). Zimbabwe interesting enough has realized the shortcoming of Mathematics and Science and is now teaching these subjects in Shona. I am just for the science and what works, also it helps rid the Afrikaners of a victim mentality if there is some space that has been created for their language.
 
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Nicodeamus said:
In terms of logistics, you are probably right, I don't have the number, but getting a few Translators to assist with the material doesn't cost as much money. Also the schools have a certain feeding area and if that isn't Afrikaans then it doesn't become feasible to have the school.

.
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I was referring more to the deeper logistics of course work, training etc.

Less languages mean less staff, less cost in creating course work, less training for staff etc.

Also less classes to maintain and split out per school.

Makes everything cheaper and more streamlined.
 
SauRoNZA said:
I was referring more to the deeper logistics of course work, training etc.

Less languages mean less staff, less cost in creating course work, less training for staff etc.

Also less classes to maintain and split out per school.

Makes everything cheaper and more streamlined.
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The cost of education has gone down to significantly that I don’t even buy that anymore. In fact I believe that Universities and schools as we know them will dramatically change in the next 30 years
 
Nicodeamus said:
The cost of education has gone down to significantly that I don’t even buy that anymore. In fact I believe that Universities and schools as we know them will dramatically change in the next 30 years
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Down? Everyone and their dog is saying it’s more expensive and will still skyrocket.

Are you referring to public and tertiary specifically?

Or referring to studies as a percentage of income rather than outright cost?
 
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