Lekota's Bodyguard Kidnapped!

[km2]

But it's also worth remembering that much of the political struggle in Europe -- and almost all of the European wars from early 19th C right into our own time -- was/is to more-or-less align the political (state boundary) reality with the ethnic or social reality.

It'd be a depressing thought if the only correct political borders can come from the result of war. The major European "terrorist/freedom fighter" groups are still ethnically driven (Turkey's PKK and Spanish/French ETA). Europe history should also remind us that it's always easier to galvanise public support to fight a war against people of other ethnic groups, needing only the most flimsy of reasons and a good dose of "fear of the others".

Now I'm not sayng ethnic identity is the most important thing (for me it's actually rather primitive, something to evolve beyond)

Absolutely, and for all the complaints that can be laid at the door of the ANC, the one really good thing they have going for them over the rest of African parties (and this is the point I was trying to get across to gpe) is that they're not ethnically focused. Turning them into an ethnically focused party is step one to civil war, and a reversion to the primitive. I don't want South Africa to get into a situation where the ethnic card is played everytime there's some form of political debate. It's actually been great how there's been so few claims of ethnic discrimination (yes, whites aside and BEE blah blah), but when I hear Lekota trying to create a wedge issue out of the "100% Zulu Boy" T-Shirts I get worried. That's the kind of easy soundbite one can just throw out constantly and it manufactures division.

The current European-imposed state boundaries must disappear. The map must be redrawn to reflect social realities. Why must Africans struggle to live together in boundaries they had no hand in creating?

I agree with this idea. Democracy also works best when the number of people is smaller, and you can actually see the result of your vote and influence things on the ground. When your vote is diluted by 46 million it gets mighty discouraging. Once this is done though, those loose states should group into somthing like the United States of Southern Africa responsible soley for defence, regulating inter-state trade, and to ensure democracy doesn't fail in any of the member nations. Like in the EU, you pay taxes directly to the nation-state and a small portion gets passed up to the USSA for their needs.

The role of the State in controlling and allocating economic resources must be dramatically reduced. For over a century we have seen the State's role expand beyond anything seen since the last days of the ancien regime in late 18th C France. The notion that states must provde housing, education, health care, utilities, employment, etc is a relatively recent one.

Don't agree here. This expansion of the states role came about because Communism did point out some valid failings in the pure Capatilist system. We live in a world where it's really hard to get a decent job without a good education, and for you and your decendents to be forever stuck at the bottom of the food chain thanks to the inablility to pay for a good education makes people extremely unhappy, AND reduces the economic potential of the country as a whole. That R100 000 that the state invests in your education makes the difference between you earning R1 500 a month, and R6 000 a month. If you get hit by a bus, a R40 000 operation to save your life is easily repayed by the economic output you produce over the next few years. Those are net positives of the state getting involved.

What I do disagree with is the "handout" mentality. Using the examples above:

Education: The state can pay for your education up to Grade 10, but at that point there needs to be a certain mark threshold which you need to achieve before it will pay for the next years. The state will help achieve any level of education you want, but you have to show that you're going to put in the effort on your side. It must stop supporting bums.

Health care: You can't have the state pay for every ache and pain. The state plan has got to be limited to something like Discovery Coastal Core benefits. If you want more than that, go find a private insurer.

I think there's very much a role for the state in social programs, it's just about keeping that balance between "cruel" and "nanny".

 

[Bravestar]

Jeeez, whats the point of a democracy when any resistance gets either a kidnapped bodyguard or worst, a dead one!!

ANC might as well ask Mugabe to leave Zim and come help Zuma+ANC turn SA into the new Zim!

 

[Kloofvreter]

It was Julius Malema. He's been eating too much Jungle Oats. Now he's too big and too strong.

Too much Black Cat...

 

[Lycanthrope]

Nah, when talking about Malema Fruit Loops come to mind.

 

[JungleBoy]

Without a doubt. More specifically members of the old MK military unit (the same ones that killed Mbeki's guard).

Intimidation tactics mean they worried. Lekota must break away and target the whole Xhosa side of the ANC now, separate from the Zulu side of the party. Would be an interesting split if he could make that happen. Brilliant for democracy too!

Lekota's claims of tribalism in the ANC are unfounded and should be exposed for the lies they are.
The people that are supposed to be be closest to Zuma are not even Zulu
Gwede Mantashe
Baleka Mbete
Zwelinzima Vavi
Fikile Mbalula
Tony Yengeni

In fact these people are all Xhosa

 

[dlk001]

Lekota's claims of tribalism in the ANC are unfounded and should be exposed for the lies they are.
The people that are supposed to be be closest to Zuma are not even Zulu
Gwede Mantashe
Baleka Mbete
Zwelinzima Vavi
Fikile Mbalula
Tony Yengeni

In fact these people are all Xhosa

Terror has lost his mind!

 

[km2]

Terror has lost his mind!

Yeah, I was listening to him on Cape Talk this afternoon, and the very first thing he did was start banging the "100% Zulu Boy" drum. He's not focusing on real issues and seems to be playing a very dangerous tribalism game.

 

[dlk001]

Yeah, I was listening to him on Cape Talk this afternoon, and the very first thing he did was start banging the "100% Zulu Boy" drum. He's not focusing on real issues and seems to be playing a very dangerous tribalism game.

He is too fired up. He needs to tone down, think and act strategically. Painting the ANC with things that are unfounded is not going to take him far.

 

[Albereth]

SIDEBAR DIGRESSION:

A bunch of stuff

/sidebar

Whatever used to be there hurt my brain - probably because it is a bunch of claptrap. Who gives a damn about whether colonials drew up the borders. They are what they are and the debate isn't about whether the international borders are right or wrong. The debate is about whether the Zulus and the Xhosas can coexist.

The need to draw any borders was done fairly recently when we went from 4 provonces to 9 and has also included some exclusion of towns along those new borders from one province or the other. And that had nothing to do with Britain.

Maybe a federal model would have been nice but we have huge disparity in where the wealth of the country is. The economic activity is in Gauteng with a few scraps in Cape Town and Durban. After that you struggle. So, unfortunately, we can't divide the country up, it just isn't economically viable, nevermind the lack of maturity needed to make it work.

And would there be a war between Xhosas and Zulus? Not really. There is a bit of distance between the EC and Zululand. Sure, there are parts of Gauteng were you have collections of these groups in close proximity but not so there would be running battles in every street in every town.

Nope, your real problem is probably between sub-groups within the whole known as the Zulus. And those differences have been around a long while. By way of explanation, the residents of KZN speak a common language but they aren't all members of the original Zulu tribe. Some support the ANC and some support Inkhata. You are now throwing a choice between ANCs in to the mix and some of those will support Zuma and others may not - I can't say that they'd support Lekota.

Noises from the EC are that Zuma isn't their choice, they are pro ANC and that must cause a problem. The story that has been put about about a 100% zulu boy is probably devisive. The euphoria following Mandela probably spilt over into support for Mbeki but people are starting to question what this ANC is about. In the past it was against the oppressor - but the oppressor has now gone so what is it? The factions will polarise - that is natural. Yes, there are some who are on the gravy train and are quite happy to play all sides - and here you can think of the entire NEC of the ANC. Their entire existence has been based on the ignorance of the voters.

Well, the voters are waking up. Maybe not quickly enough but a split along tribal lines should push political power back down to the people where it should be rather than leaving it in the hands of the current mob.

This is where the IFP may get stronger (relatively speaking). Buthelezi has been promoting nationalism and maybe those non-Zulu Zulu speakers will be able to subscribe to his message.

A split on 'tribal' lines would be a good thing. Language spoken does not equate to 'tribe' and any polarisation along real tribal lines, even if they coincidently vote in similar fashion, at least means that those elected into power owe their allegiance to a number of groups rather than the big voting blocks we have a the moment. A change from 'all blacks vote for the ANC' to 'all of the hundreds of tribes vote for the ANC' is a good thing. Suddenly proportional representation will have emphasis on the representation aspect.

 

[Albereth]

Lekota's claims of tribalism in the ANC are unfounded and should be exposed for the lies they are.
The people that are supposed to be be closest to Zuma are not even Zulu
Gwede Mantashe
Baleka Mbete
Zwelinzima Vavi
Fikile Mbalula
Tony Yengeni

In fact these people are all Xhosa

The language that they speak is irrelevant - these people are in it for the money and each and every one of them would sell his (or her) grandmother for that place on the gravy train.

Pounding that tribal drum is a good thing - it'll get the voters thinking even if the outcome is still the same.

I'd be far happier knowing that 90% of the country voted ANC if they all thought about where the cross went, rather than having 80% voting that way because the colours were pretty.

 

[km2]

A split on 'tribal' lines would be a good thing. Language spoken does not equate to 'tribe' and any polarisation along real tribal lines, even if they coincidently vote in similar fashion, at least means that those elected into power owe their allegiance to a number of groups rather than the big voting blocks we have a the moment. A change from 'all blacks vote for the ANC' to 'all of the hundreds of tribes vote for the ANC' is a good thing. Suddenly proportional representation will have emphasis on the representation aspect.

A successful democracy depends on parties being able to gain and lose votes, either by doing a good/bad job, or presenting a messages that makes people believe you can do a better/worse job than the current lot in charge.

When you mix in tribalism or any other "my team/your team" nonsense, the importance of job performance disappears and you're left with people choosing parties because "you look/sound like them". This then changes what a politician needs to do to make sure he gets reelected. He doesn't have to even try to create a "better life for all", all he has to do is look out for the tribe that voted for him. He knows he'll be unable to gain votes from other ethnic-blocks because he's not one of them, and by spending time on projects that help other ethnic-blocks he's taking time away from things that could help his own support base.

We've already got a situation where Helen Zille will win her Best Mayor award but it won't make a lick of difference, because the DA has the perception of being a white party. We don't need a whole lot of new parties with little ethnic labels separating them.

 

[Albereth]

When you mix in tribalism or any other "my team/your team" nonsense, the importance of job performance disappears and you're left with people choosing parties because "you look/sound like them". This then changes what a politician needs to do to make sure he gets reelected. He doesn't have to even try to create a "better life for all", all he has to do is look out for the tribe that voted for him.

The 'tribe' that voted for him? No single tribe has a majority. Please don't think that everyone who speaks Zulu is a member of the 'Zulu tribe'. There are many tribes that are labelled Zulu.

 

[km2]

The 'tribe' that voted for him? No single tribe has a majority. Please don't think that everyone who speaks Zulu is a member of the 'Zulu tribe'. There are many tribes that are labelled Zulu.

There's a large enough block of people who may identify with a grouping like Xhosa or Zulu, that it would be worthwhile for a bad politician to try and grab that share through playing the ethnic card. Especially if that politician has very little else going for him.