LHC Press release

[Techne]

Did I hit a nerve there... How will this help the Human Race?

Cars helped, the internet helped, modern medicine(of which going to the dentist these days is my fav) helped, agriculture helped, computers and the internet helped, renewable energy researched helps, understanding the weather patterns help......

How does better understanding the laws of nature and physics, better my life....

Please tell me, so I can try and one day reach a level of intelligence quotient, even remotely close to some of you, and feel good about myself and my Job I got because of that said aspect, and the Steak I am eating, while watching a documentary on the LHC....while our neighbours are starving!!!

Similar kinds of questions were asked when people did "useless" research on trying to make smaller computers...

One thing this discovery may do is prevent future useless experiments. Some string theories require particle colliders the size of our solar system. This discovery scrapped a few of those speculations as the standard model does not require such exotic interpretations .

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Similar kinds of questions were asked when people did "useless" research on trying to make smaller computers...

One thing this discovery may do is prevent future useless experiments. Some string theories require particle colliders the size of our solar system. This discovery scrapped a few of those speculations as the standard model does not require such exotic interpretations .

I kind of wouldn't mind seeing one of those.

 

[Unhappy1]

Did I hit a nerve there... How will this help the Human Race?

Cars helped, the internet helped, modern medicine(of which going to the dentist these days is my fav) helped, agriculture helped, computers and the internet helped, renewable energy researched helps, understanding the weather patterns help......

How does better understanding the laws of nature and physics, better my life....

Please tell me, so I can try and one day reach a level of intelligence quotient, even remotely close to some of you, and feel good about myself and my Job I got because of that said aspect, and the Steak I am eating, while watching a documentary on the LHC....while our neighbours are starving!!!

You do realise all the things you just listed as "helped" were all discovered from something just like the Higgs Boson?

+1

Just as an example there are boat loads of technology spin-offs from NASA alone.

Yup an entire site dedicated to Nasa spin offs alone ... http://spinoff.nasa.gov/

 

[Swa]

You do know the internet was developed at CERN, right? The laws of nature and physics? You mean like gravity and electromagnetism? Yeah, how'd understanding those fundamental forces of nature ever help humanity? :erm:

I already showed that different aspects of the internet was developed on different continents. The old saying that necessity is the mother of invention is still true. Not fringe science is the mother of invention. The internet is commonly seen as a necessity and various institutions including one in SA was working on parts of its functioning at the time when sharing information became a necessity.

Spin-offs unfortunately don't count. All projects produce spin-offs and whose to say other projects' spin-offs won't be better? We might have had IPv6 from the get go if another institution invented the internet and foresaw its global usage.

Invariably we might see benefits in the future in currently exotic areas such as space travel. The criticisms against it are valid however. There are current areas of research where the money can have a much more immediate benefit like cancer, green energy, HIV to name just a few.

Only a religious science nut will not question money spent indiscriminately. Or perhaps it's because you would rather see the money spent on something that you think can confirm your beliefs? You would rather see money spent on proving the fantasy of evolution than on starving people?

Why don't you ask BMW how they can sponsor the Springboks with R40mil while people are starving? Or how a baseball player can get a $275 million (over 10 years) contract while people are suffering?

I actually do. I question why Vodacom sponsors the Bulls while Simphiwe can't run a business because of high communications costs and has to continue living in a shack because of it. The fact that most people don't actually shows humanity has our priorities screwed up.

 

[murraybiscuit]

forget the higgs, i think we've just discovered something far more incredible.
if we cull the cern project and divert the funds to poor countries(TM) around the world, we can finally end world poverty(TM).
now if we can just divert the funds from space programs into world peace(TM), that will be the end of all our problems.
unfortunately beauty pageants, as we know them, may be a thing of the past. but i'm sure they'll be willing to take one for the team.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I already showed that different aspects of the internet was developed on different continents. The old saying that necessity is the mother of invention is still true. Not fringe science is the mother of invention. The internet is commonly seen as a necessity and various institutions including one in SA was working on parts of its functioning at the time when sharing information became a necessity.

Spin-offs unfortunately don't count. All projects produce spin-offs and whose to say other projects' spin-offs won't be better? We might have had IPv6 from the get go if another institution invented the internet and foresaw its global usage.

Invariably we might see benefits in the future in currently exotic areas such as space travel. The criticisms against it are valid however. There are current areas of research where the money can have a much more immediate benefit like cancer, green energy, HIV to name just a few.

I doubt money is being taken away from research into those fields and given to this. There is money, room and necessity for both, I think. Large-scale research projects like this don't get undertaken because scientists are bored and don't have anything better to do. There is a legitimate need and reasoning to fund it. This is how human knowledge progresses.

Only a religious science nut will not question money spent indiscriminately. Or perhaps it's because you would rather see the money spent on something that you think can confirm your beliefs? You would rather see money spent on proving the fantasy of evolution than on starving people?

I have no idea what you're babbling about here. Projecting?

I actually do. I question why Vodacom sponsors the Bulls while Simphiwe can't run a business because of high communications costs and has to continue living in a shack because of it. The fact that most people don't actually shows humanity has our priorities screwed up.

Maybe because Vodacom isn't a charity or a venture capital firm? Although, In a large sense, I agree. There are many groups of people/governments/firms whose priorities are messed up. Legitimate and important scientific inquiry isn't the problem, though, and defunding it won't solve those problems.

Debating over this is like debating over religion, If you are not a Christian, you will never allow yourself to be convinced otherwise, if you are Muslim you will never see eye to eye with Christians... Etc etc. If you are a scientist, you will never side with humanitarians...

I thought we were talking about LHC , how did the Boks enter this..... Besides, it proves my point that you too believe certain monies are better spent elsewhere.

As a science-buff and a humanist, I find it insulting that you somehow put them as opposites. And no, this discussion is not at all like religious debates. You claimed research like this is a waste of time. I disagreed, and told you why. You claimed a better understanding of the laws of nature and physics hasn't helped humanity, which is patently false. The machine you're using to post on this forum is proof of that. Without the foundations developed by scientists in centuries past, we wouldn't have any of the useful technologies you mentioned. Those scientists didn't always know that they work they were doing would have this impact, they did it for the sake of exploring, discovering and understanding more than we do now.

Obviously I agree with you that certain monies are better spent elsewhere. I wouldn't mind if less money was spent on developing more sophisticated and effective ways of killing each other, for example. The LHC cost $9 billion. Looking at the budgets of the institutions funding this thing, and the time-period over which it's being used, it's a paltry amount.

 

[Geriatrix]

As a science-buff and a humanist, I find it insulting that you somehow put them as opposites. And no, this discussion is not at all like religious debates. You claimed research like this is a waste of time. I disagreed, and told you why. You claimed a better understanding of the laws of nature and physics hasn't helped humanity, which is patently false. The machine you're using to post on this forum is proof of that. Without the foundations developed by scientists in centuries past, we wouldn't have any of the useful technologies you mentioned. Those scientists didn't always know that they work they were doing would have this impact, they did it for the sake of exploring, discovering and understanding more than we do now.

Oh, forget it ObDawn, let them brood about this technological progress as 'wasteful spending', while they remain silent(or secretly support)at certain country's spending ten times more on bombing and shooting up some middle-eastern folks to kingdom come. They've already said they view it like religion so let them be. To them, everything must be Us VS Them.

 

[zippy]

Did I hit a nerve there... How will this help the Human Race?

Cars helped, the internet helped, modern medicine(of which going to the dentist these days is my fav) helped, agriculture helped, computers and the internet helped, renewable energy researched helps, understanding the weather patterns help......

How does better understanding the laws of nature and physics, better my life....

Please tell me, so I can try and one day reach a level of intelligence quotient, even remotely close to some of you, and feel good about myself and my Job I got because of that said aspect, and the Steak I am eating, while watching a documentary on the LHC....while our neighbours are starving!!!

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incorrect_predictions

The ordinary 'horseless carriage' is at present a luxury for the wealthy; and although its price will probably fall in the future, it will never, of course, come into as common use as the bicycle. Literary Digest, 1899.

We can add Pietleeu and Swa to this in a couple of years

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Oh, forget it ObDawn, let them brood about this technological progress as 'wasteful spending', while they remain silent(or secretly support)at certain country's spending ten times more on bombing and shooting up some middle-eastern folks to kingdom come. They've already said they view it like religion so let them be. To them, everything must be Us VS Them.

Sad state of affairs, man.

 

[Unhappy1]

“Nothing is so dangerous to the progress of the human mind than to assume that our views of science are ultimate, that there are no mysteries in nature, that our triumphs are complete and that there are no new worlds to conquer.”

― Humphry Davy


Oh and Swa , the LHC is the largest Scientific instrument and largest experiment ever. Please go sprout your ignorance about "fringe science" elsewhere.

 

[Swa]

I doubt money is being taken away from research into those fields and given to this. There is money, room and necessity for both, I think. Large-scale research projects like this don't get undertaken because scientists are bored and don't have anything better to do. There is a legitimate need and reasoning to fund it. This is how human knowledge progresses.

Money spent on one thing is always being taken away from something else. There are a lot of important projects to do with disease that are short on funding. I didn't say that research projects should not be undertaken. The problem is that while there are underfunded important projects with the possibility of a much more immediate benefit then it's valid to question its necessity.

I have no idea what you're babbling about here. Projecting?




Maybe because Vodacom isn't a charity or a venture capital firm? Although, In a large sense, I agree. There are many groups of people/governments/firms whose priorities are messed up. Legitimate and important scientific inquiry isn't the problem, though, and defunding it won't solve those problems.

What I see is that it's always the same group of people that for the most part don't question when something is done "in the name of science." That in itself only shows a biased attitude but then people like Unhappy here will pounce on anyone that advocates legitimate criticism. That is the hallmark of religious nuts.

 

[Unhappy1]

What I see is that it's always the same group of people that for the most part don't question when something is done "in the name of science." That in itself only shows a biased attitude but then people like Unhappy here will pounce on anyone that advocates legitimate criticism. That is the hallmark of religious nuts.

Legitimate criticism , you're full of jokes aren't you

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Money spent on one thing is always being taken away from something else. There are a lot of important projects to do with disease that are short on funding. I didn't say that research projects should not be undertaken. The problem is that while there are underfunded important projects with the possibility of a much more immediate benefit then it's valid to question its necessity.

So what's your view on the LHC, and CERN in general? Do you think it's a waste of money?

What I see is that it's always the same group of people that for the most part don't question when something is done "in the name of science." That in itself only shows a biased attitude but then people like Unhappy here will pounce on anyone that advocates legitimate criticism. That is the hallmark of religious nuts.

Well, I happen to think scientific endeavours like this are well worth it, and would like more people to get on-board. Same with the SKA Project. I think it's a wonderful and worthwhile avenue of our resources and time for a variety of reasons.

 

[Swa]

So what's your view on the LHC, and CERN in general? Do you think it's a waste of money?



Well, I happen to think scientific endeavours like this are well worth it, and would like more people to get on-board. Same with the SKA Project. I think it's a wonderful and worthwhile avenue of our resources and time for a variety of reasons.

I think money would be better spent solving real problems rather than satisfy curiosity.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I think money would be better spent solving real problems rather than satisfy curiosity.

That's taking a very short-sighted view. I refer to what I said in my replies to Pietleeu. Scientists were doing theoretical work in centuries past that had no necessary practical application or use in that day and age, but that formed part of the larger web of knowledge and progress that came to be invaluable at a later stage. Reality is like a gigantic puzzle, and we're piecing our understanding of it together slowly but surely.

 

[DJ...]

I think money would be better spent solving real problems rather than satisfy curiosity.

So you're of the opinion that our endeavors to understand the quantum world have had no benefit to humanity at all?

To be honest, you're saying that scientific endeavor in itself is a waste, but let's just stick with quantum for now...

 

[Swa]

That's taking a very short-sighted view. I refer to what I said in my replies to Pietleeu. Scientists were doing theoretical work in centuries past that had no necessary practical application or use in that day and age, but that formed part of the larger web of knowledge and progress that came to be invaluable at a later stage. Reality is like a gigantic puzzle, and we're piecing our understanding of it together slowly but surely.

Somewhat misinterpreting what I said...

It's not the work being carried out but about the expenditure. I know of many scientists that did "theoretical" work in dark basements with almost no funding. So money could also be spent on saving the lives of people that will contribute to the web of knowledge. So it's not a short-sighted view to think of funding possibly hundreds of projects with the money currently used only for one. It's a question of where benefit can be foreseen there's a better chance of it. It's thinking ahead.

 

[zippy]

. It's thinking ahead.

we are making progress now. Science is about trying to understand the universe so that we can improve our lot. Its about finding solutions to problems and answers to questions.

If we stop spending money on research as long as people are starving, then we will never find any solutions and things will progressivly worse.

Its advances in science and technology that has made it possible for the human race to survive with scarcity of resources while population growth increases at the same time.

You are living in a fantasy land if you think cutting investment in research is going to mean more meny goes to the poor. Less money will go the poor, because economies will begin to stagnate and shortages will increase because processes will not keep pace with population growth.

Thinking ahead is understanding that we need to find answers. We need to find alternative energy sources. We need to find better ways of producing enough food. We need to improve our understanding of physics, biology etc. Current technology is not going to cut it 50 years from now. Some people are better at physics, some are better at medicine, some are better at farming. Utilise these skills in their areas of expertise. Too many people are short-sighted and overwhelmed by what goes on around them. They panic and throw their hands in the air. These people are part of the problem, and not the solution.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Somewhat misinterpreting what I said...

It's not the work being carried out but about the expenditure. I know of many scientists that did "theoretical" work in dark basements with almost no funding. So money could also be spent on saving the lives of people that will contribute to the web of knowledge. So it's not a short-sighted view to think of funding possibly hundreds of projects with the money currently used only for one. It's a question of where benefit can be foreseen there's a better chance of it. It's thinking ahead.

In the larger scheme of things, the money being spent on this is a trivial amount. I think it would be a mistake to take money away from projects such as this to give to other important medical research. There are other areas where money could be diverted from.

I'm curious, do you consider the SKA project similarly unimportant?

 

[Swa]

we are making progress now. Science is about trying to understand the universe so that we can improve our lot. Its about finding solutions to problems and answers to questions.

If we stop spending money on research as long as people are starving, then we will never find any solutions and things will progressivly worse.

Its advances in science and technology that has made it possible for the human race to survive with scarcity of resources while population growth increases at the same time.

You are living in a fantasy land if you think cutting investment in research is going to mean more meny goes to the poor. Less money will go the poor, because economies will begin to stagnate and shortages will increase because processes will not keep pace with population growth.

Thinking ahead is understanding that we need to find answers. We need to find alternative energy sources. We need to find better ways of producing enough food. We need to improve our understanding of physics, biology etc. Current technology is not going to cut it 50 years from now. Some people are better at physics, some are better at medicine, some are better at farming. Utilise these skills in their areas of expertise. Too many people are short-sighted and overwhelmed by what goes on around them. They panic and throw their hands in the air. These people are part of the problem, and not the solution.

You are also misinterpreting what I said. Where did I mention just giving money to the poor? No I said it's about weighing up which research money is better spent on. I'm done with this. It's clearly a matter of some people being more humanitarian inclined and others more pure knowledge inclined. Both will overemphasise the importance of one and underemphasise the importance of the other.