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Question of the Day: What is the ultimate French toast topping?
Lightning and ADSL
- Thread starter Jonaling
- Start date
Best thing to do is get a quote from the most expensive place you know. My HP multifunction got taken out and I got a replacement quote from the most expensive place I could find. Got more than a R1k extra paid out and got a new HP from Makro for cheap.
Mine was, and it was not specified separately in All Risks. The loss occurred in the house.
As I mentioned, they'll ask you the value of the equipment that you lost. If the printer has been superseded by a newer model then make sure the value you give them covers that.
HOWEVER - the company they appoint to replace your equipment will ignore the functional capability (what do they know or care about the speeds and features of your deceased pride and joy?) and palm off some cr@p they source cheaply (and bill the insurers dearly, as I found out). You must follow up quickly with the agent handling your claim and find out EXACTLY what is being quoted for replacement. That's where I stopped the rot on my claim.
You can't claim a replacement that's better than what you had, but you are entitled to a "like for like" replacement. So if your laptop had a widescreen, fingerprint reader, webcam, or wireless-n then those features can be used to eliminate the cheap and nasty replacements ("mine had that xyz feature and I must have it"), and get you closer to your "ideal" replacement.
And yet that is exactly what all those surge protectors must do (that others have bought). We install surge protection so that direct lightning strikes cause no damage. But the plug-in type that cost typically tens or 100 times more money per protected appliance does not even claim to provide surge protection. View its numeric specs. Why did others have damage even with the power strip or UPS? It provided the protection it claims. It only protects from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. It does not claim to protect from surges that typically cause damage.
The informed homeowner installs protection that is designed to protect even from direct lightning (and the other lesser transients). That solution was posted in Isolating Pc and Router on 18 Oct 2009.
Every time a munitions dump is struck, the entire thing explodes? Of course not. Effective surge protection was standard that long ago. One superior earthing technique was pioneered in munitions dumps - Ufer ground. How long ago? Probably much longer than anyone here has been alive. Surge protection from direct lightning strikes without damage is that well understood and installed that routinely that long ago.
But when too many are only educated by retail store salesmen, well, notice how many wasted so much money on plug-in protectors.
The insurance company does not replace anything, they pay out cold hard cash so deciding on a replacement is my decision. It differs between insurance companies.
guest2013-1
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I run my phone jack through a surge protector just in case
Bismuth
Expert Member
I disconnect the phone line and power. If that doesn't stop a lightning strike, nothing will.
B
B
Learn what ham radio operators learned in the earliest 20th Century. They would disconnect the antenna and still suffer damage. Even put that antenna lead inside a mason jar - and still suffer damage. Damage stopped when the antenna lead was earthed.
In many nations, a phone line is routinely earthed by the telco where their wire meets yours. Even required by national regulations. But again, no protector is protection. Protection is when the protector connects transient energy short (ie 'less than 3 meters') to single point earth. Then a surge need not enter the building via phone lines.
Even disconnecting is a poor substitution to proper earthing. A human must know that transient will exist before it occurs. Rarely happens because humans are just so unreliable.
Does your telco disconnect service all over town before a thunderstorm approaches? Of course not. They also install that much less expensive and so reliable solution.
I suppose it all depends on where you live, and the terrain around you.
There's a granite kopje about 500m from my house that gets hit regularly (the poor dassies on that thing must be on Valium!). The night my equipment got hit there was very little thunder activity, and then a quiet "crack" followed by a massive bang. I knew the equipment was fried before I even tried to check.
There was a house a short distance from the same kopje which had the largest residential thatch roof (so I'm told) in the southern hemisphere. We saw it burn down in under 5 minutes - they couldn't even get the cars out. That place had massive lightning rods.
What I'm seeing from these posts is that you're either lucky, or insured.
howardb
Expert Member
Since my Modem, Router, PC and server were taken out in a bright flash of light, even thought we had decent surge protection on each, I unplug everything - then use my laptop on battery power and 3G... 
You assumed a surge protector is surge protection? That is a very popular urban myth. A surge 'protector' is only a connecting device. It may even contribute to appliance damage if not connected to surge 'protection'. A surge protector too close to an appliance can even earth a surge destructively through that appliance.Since my Modem, Router, PC and server were taken out in a bright flash of light, even thought we had decent surge protection on each, I unplug everything - then use my laptop on battery power and 3G...
The majority demonstrate how sales propaganda is so effective. Why so many completely ignore over 100 years of science and experience to waste money on a device - only because it protects from one type of surge. And that type of surge is not typically destructive.
The NIST (a US government research agency) describes what a protector must do. And then describes what you (apparently) and others have wasted money on:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector
> will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge
> protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
> properly.
Did your protector have a less than 3 meter wire that connects the protector to earth? A wire separate from all other wires? A wire without sharp bends or splices? To a ground that all incoming wires (in every cable) connect to? If not, you had crap surge protection. A scam promoted to the naive who do not ask embarrassing questions.
Will that silly little 2 cm part inside the protector stop what 3 km of sky could not? That is what so many plug-in protectors claim to do. A majority buy them anyway. So many believe hearsay. Ignore 100 years of well proven science.
Worse, many only know by counting posts. Forget to eliminate every claim that comes without facts and numbers.
You had damage. Therefore the likely defect was insufficient (or missing) earthing. The most expensive surge protectors do not even claim protection in manufacturer's numeric specs. Of course. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Properly installed surge protection means a direct lightning strike causes no damage - even to the protector. That means a many times less expensive 'whole house' protector. A protector is only a effective as what provided protection - earth ground.
howardb
Expert Member
In all honesty, I haven't got a clue what you said - I am a regular consumer, and when I go into a reputable electrical shop to get decent surge protection, I probably make the incorrect assumption that they know what they are talking about; I look at the specifications and numbers that are presented to me, advising me that they guarantee protection for a direct strike up to 1.21 jiggawatts - "here sir, this is the best money can buy", I make an informed decision and say "I'll take two please" - the salesman obviously laughs to himself and gleefully rubs his hands...
I'm not a scientist, and never will be, so if I got ripped, then everyone may have a laugh at my expense - I suppose moral of the story to the normal consumer is not to have any surge protection if you're not an earthing scientist, as you're being ripped off, so I'd rather unplug all my devices when there's a storm and not look like a tit!
I don't know what a decent earth protection would cost, and I'm not sure I'd really want to know, as I'm sure I'd have to re-mortgage my house in order to be able to afford it in South Africa...even if there is someone who can do it properly...
Nothing posted required knowledge beyond what was taught in school science. Did they teach what Ben Franklin demonstrated in 1752? It is that 'complicated' - principles even taught in primary school science.
Lightning strikes church steeples. Why? That wooden steeple is a better conductor to earth. Current is incoming at the top and outgoing at the base. Current will flow no matter what tries to stop it. Since wood is not an excellent conductor, then voltage also is created (so that current will flow). Current (20,000 amps) times voltage is destructive energy. Simple multiplication says why a steeple is damaged.
Franklin simply gave lightning a more conductive path to earth. Incoming on a lightning rod. Outgoing to a superior earthing rod. Lightning will find a better connection to earth. Same current times near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.
Exactly what every effective protector must do. Connect to earth. Surges are electricity. Again, school science. Electricity must have both an incoming and outgoing path - else no electricity flows. Incoming on AC electric. Outgoing to earth ground destructively via appliances. Buildings are chock full of paths to earth. Only way to divert current is where current enters the building. Same principles demonstrated by Franklin are why one 'whole house' protector is so effective.
The informed homeowner spends maybe tens or 100 times less money for only one 'whole house' protector. Lightning incoming on AC electric is connected short to earth. Energy not inside a building. No current incoming and outgoing through appliances. Due to short wires (no sharp bends, no splices, etc) to earth ground, near zero voltage is created. Large current times near zero voltage means energy is not destructively dissipated inside a building. Same principle that Franklin used in 1752. Same principles taught in primary school science. Protection means connecting electricity harmlessly to earth.
Where is that numeric specification (from your electrical supply house) that claim surge protection? Post it. Show us numbers that quantify protection from each type of surge. You cannot. They are not selling to informed consumers. They are selling to people who do not even ask for spec numbers. Who even forgot what Franklin demonstrated in 1752.
Embarrasing numbers: Will a protector rated at maybe 700 joules will somehow absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules (or gigajoules)? The informed consumer asks simple damning questions. And never lets eyes glaze over when those numbers are provided. Seven out of ten people let their eyes glaze over.
Another myth that sells inferior products: the most inferior products hype a big buck warranty. Common in any free market industry. The biggest warranty often identifies the most inferior products. Effective protectors typically have no warranty.
Example: one industry benchmark is Polyphaser. Their application notes are highly regarded. What does Polyphaser discuss? Polyphaser is not selling a scam. Their app notes discuss what makes protectors effective - earth ground:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx
Numerous other manufacturers also provide effective solutions including Keison, Clipsal, General Electric, Siemens, ABB, etc. Names associated with responsible electrical equipment. Anyone buying Belkin, Tripplite, APC, Monster Cable, etc all but want to be scammed. Sufficient sized protectors sell for as little as $50. That comes to maybe $1 per protected appliance. How much was that plug-in protector? Typically tens of times more money (per appliance) for a device that does not even claim to provide that protection. But the salesman reaps a large profit.
You said you have spec numbers from that salesman? Good. Let's see them. Show us numbers for that low impedance (therefore low voltage) connection to earth.
How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated wire for a less than 3 meter connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion of earthing (prefer you to remain ignorant about earth ground).
Meanwhile, inferior protectors have a massively higher profit margin. Why would a salesman be honest? His customer never asks for numbers. His customer forgot what was taught in school science – protection always means connecting lightning to earth ground. The most naïve believe a warranty proves quality. Somehow a 2 cm part will stop what three kilometers of sky could not (more ignored numbers)? Somehow a few hundred joules inside a protector will absorb gigajoules (more ignored numbers)? Why be honest when his customer all but begs to be scammed?
No way around what any informed consumer knows. So many had plug-in protectors and still had damage? Of course. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Again, because so many eyes glazed over when above numbers, what Franklin demonstrated, and Polyphaser app notes were provided. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
I have to agree with you here. I'd totally love to have my telephone line and all the electric circuits in my house properly grounded to help with the massive lightning problem I have at my house, but I don't think that's going to come cheap if hiring some pro qualified scientists who know what they're doing is really the only way (wow, their service must be high in demand..I don't know what a decent earth protection would cost, and I'm not sure I'd really want to know, as I'm sure I'd have to re-mortgage my house in order to be able to afford it in South Africa...even if there is someone who can do it properly...
), so I assume the next best bet would be to buy insured surge protection, and then get told that that's ALSO stupid, AS WELL AS the last resort of even UNPLUGGING my stuff. EISH, So what now? 
Two 3 meter ground rods are too expensive?
I am Penguin
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I have to agree with you here. I'd totally love to have my telephone line and all the electric circuits in my house properly grounded to help with the massive lightning problem I have at my house, but I don't think that's going to come cheap if hiring some pro qualified scientists who know what they're doing is really the only way (wow, their service must be high in demand..
There is a few things that can be done. It is simple and is effective but remember nothing can stop a direct hit on your power and signal cable infrastructure. But it can prevent/contain damage from a distant strike. The only fact is there are no half bake measures. All must be done at the same time.
Sometimes the electronics are not damaged by the "Lightning strike" but the power surge due to the affect on the power source at/from the electric supply companies.
Thus in some areas/case a online UPS would be a safer solution when it comes to protection. They are not that expensive anymore but still more than the cheaper offline UPS systems. Read this thread here too!
Things to consider.
1: Foremost Grounding is of utter importance Its no use you have protection but absolute no place for the excess energy to dissipate too.
2; The protection in the inside of the electronics is a final last resort. Unless you are qualified to open the unit and replace the varistors etc. the unit is still classed as defect. (but easily repairable in some cases)
3; The cost of insurance for lightning can be offset against doing the job properly.
4: The AC power source as well as the incoming signal (Telephone) lines must both be protected at the same time, the one is nearly useless without the other.
5: The AC source must' be protected at the incoming source at the DB (distribution) box as well and not only at the point of using the equipment.
6: A proper ground plane should exist where the energy can dissipate to at the points of protection where the cables enters the Db box.
7: The incoming cables must preferably be coiled (5meter coiled in 0.5m diameter circle) at the incoming side after the position where protection is installed. The high inductance caused in the coil by the fast peak will slow down the spike giving the lightning protection devices to work more effectively.
8: the ground rods must be minimum three spaced 1 meter apart connected in a star concept within three meters of the protection point with one point going to the earth side of the protection devices. Each protection device should have its own wire to the star center rod (Live + Neutral). The more rods, the longer the rods and the wetter the earth ground plane the better. In very dry sandy areas it could be useful to dig up a big area 0.5-1m deep and lay a wire mesh carpet of copper wire to form a ground plane.
9: use the latest Ellies or other electric protection boxes for all the inside points where electronics are used. That must again be for both the power AC source and Signal lines. See these links.
It come with a R20000.00 Surge warranty (Conditions apply?)
http://www.ellies.co.za/index.php?id=423
http://www.ellies.co.za/index.php?id=403
http://www.ellies.co.za/index.php?id=420
http://www.ellies.co.za/index.php?id=419
http://www.ellies.co.za/index.php?id=426
Some prices:
Some prices
They are sold at Makro, etc, also try Space TV JHB (or ellies direct) for better prices or availability http://www.spacetv.co.za/
After all this it would be more secure but can never be expected to nail a direct close strike.
Use it loose it.
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