LLU - Local Loop Unbundling

Clayman

Clayman

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Hi Peeps

I see that LLU is on the cards for SA, while I do understand that this allows other fixed line providers to use the line that runs in the street that connects to your house and will eventually have to connect to their exchange there are a couple of points I don't understand.

- Who owns the line now that it is connected to another company's exchange?
- Who has the onus of maintaining the line? :confused:
- Telkom initially installed all those lines, why would they agree to let others use it?
- Would it be feasible in terms of lowering the cost of ADSL line rental or would the inverse occur?
- How much would it cost these new fixed line providers to install exchanges everywhere?
- If one client is on Telkom and the other is on Company x, how would a single cable's traffic be routed to two different exchanges especially in terms of clusters/complexes?
- Would Company x be able to open Telkom's boxes to check for issues?

This is of great concern to ADSL users, because if it is feasible, Telscum would be forced to reduce their price for rental on ADSL lines due to competition which is absolutely lacking at the moment (non existant to be precise)

Your input would be appreciated :)
Apologies if I've screwed up on the telephone engineering aspect with regards to the lines and how they are routed through complexes and clusters etc.
 
Clayman said:
Hi Peeps

I see that LLU is on the cards for SA, while I do understand that this allows other fixed line providers to use the line that runs in the street that connects to your house and will eventually have to connect to their exchange there are a couple of points I don't understand.

- Who owns the line now that it is connected to another company's exchange?
- Who has the onus of maintaining the line? :confused:
- Telkom initially installed all those lines, why would they agree to let others use it?
- Would it be feasible in terms of lowering the cost of ADSL line rental or would the inverse occur?
- How much would it cost these new fixed line providers to install exchanges everywhere?
- If one client is on Telkom and the other is on Company x, how would a single cable's traffic be routed to two different exchanges especially in terms of clusters/complexes?
- Would Company x be able to open Telkom's boxes to check for issues?

This is of great concern to ADSL users, because if it is feasible, Telscum would be forced to reduce their price for rental on ADSL lines due to competition which is absolutely lacking at the moment (non existant to be precise)

Your input would be appreciated :)
Apologies if I've screwed up on the telephone engineering aspect with regards to the lines and how they are routed through complexes and clusters etc.
Click to expand...

If you look at the UK, for example, the ISP's are allowed to put their own equipment into BT's exchanges. The copper lines still belong to BT and are maintained by them. The ISP's pay BT a fixed (regulated) monthly rental price for each line that is unbundled. The ISP then have to recoup this money from the customer themselves. They also have to recover the capital cost of the telco equipment, as well as install the backhaul links between the exchanges and their own offices. Any cable issues are handled by BT, not the ISP. They would just ask that the line be checked. The ISP's wouldn't unbundle an exchange unless they can save money on it and cut their own cost.

Basically this is going to depend on ICASA and the way the regulations are written. Favor Telkom too much, and the ISP's won't unbundle. The above is full unbundling, which may be a while away. The DoC and ICASA indicated they are considering intermediate steps (e.g. BitStream) as stepping stones to LLU.
 
Clayman said:
- Telkom initially installed all those lines, why would they agree to let others use it?
Click to expand...

Many of those copper lines were installed back in the days when Telkom was still the Government Post Office and Telecommunications entity using Tax payers money. The lines belonged to us back then. The Government just gave them to Telkom when they partly privatised. We got paid nothing for them. It is only fair that the lines now revert back to the public.
 
Even so, Telkom have been maintaining and replacing the lines as they get stolen/worn. I don't see Telkom giving it up so easily.
 
I've just linked a M&G article regarding this in the articles section of the forum. Seems Telkom are already making excuses regarding the deadline. I don't think the new ministerial appointment has been a good one for Telkom. I think he's going to hold them to the ICASA deadline.
 
Strobemeister said:
I've just linked a M&G article regarding this in the articles section of the forum. Seems Telkom are already making excuses regarding the deadline. I don't think the new ministerial appointment has been a good one for Telkom. I think he's going to hold them to the ICASA deadline.
Click to expand...
The way I read that article is that she is pointing out what ICASA has to do before LLU can be implemented...
 
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It's real simple: If you install it, you own it, but you have to allow access to it to others, based on a steeply regulated cost.

It = Telecoms equipment/lines/whatever.
 
RPG_Fan said:
Even so, Telkom have been maintaining and replacing the lines as they get stolen/worn. I don't see Telkom giving it up so easily.
Click to expand...

yes but they didn't exactly upgrade the aging infrastructure have they?

And even if they did, they get paid billions for their services. R600 for 4mbit line rental? are u crazy

Screw telkom, they completely mis manage our billions!

Monopolies never work in the customer's interests..
 
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RPG_Fan said:
Even so, Telkom have been maintaining and replacing the lines as they get stolen/worn. I don't see Telkom giving it up so easily.
Click to expand...

Really? You could have fooled me. They are actually losing lines at an alarming rate.
 
Garyvdh said:
Really? You could have fooled me. They are actually losing lines at an alarming rate.
Click to expand...

+1 But there are reasons for this.

It's similar to their obligation back in the day when privatising and being listed. They had a obligation to provide services to under privileged areas. They installed new infrastructure and tried to provide service but after a month or two the subscribers no longer paid and the infrastructure got stolen. So they decided to hell with it as it actually made more sense to pay the fine to government which was small compared to the loss they were making.

Providing fixed line comms is expensive compare to cellular services. Planting poles, digging trenches etc is expensive from a labour point of view compared to providing wireless services.

Wireless services however will never provide us with decent low latency, high bandwidth services.

Crime does have an impact on the economy.
 
This LLU is going to bring me out of retirement! Ponder has now made me go and look at their history (here: http://www.telkom.co.za/common/TelkomHistory/index.html ) and specifically the recent period that will impact on LLU.

Telkom was founded on 1 October 1991.
On 14 May 1997 a strategic equity partner acquired a 30% equity stake in Telkom.
Telkom listed on the JSE and NYSE on 4 March 2003.
In June and November 2004 the SEP sold their 30% and left our shores.

Bringing this back to Gary's statement:

I would say that there was reasonable copper cable expansion between 91 and 97.

This was ratcheted up hugely in 97 when the Yanks and Malaysians came on board as they were given growth targets (as mentioned by ponder).

This continued until just before their departure in 04.

Since then I'd say that the growth trend is downwards, even though ADSL subscribers are on the increase. My reasoning is that they are using copper circuits that were installed in bulk between 97 and 04. Less of pre-providing infrastructure in new suburbs and more of providing services on request only.

I would also hazard a guess and say that it is far more difficult to obtain a copper network in a new area now than it was between 97 and 04. Hence the perception that there are fewer copper cables.

Sounds confusing but in the end there is actually far, far more copper in the ground right now than there ever was before and specifically prior to 1991, which negates Gary's statement that they are losing (physical) lines.
 
Garyvdh said:
Many of those copper lines were installed back in the days when Telkom was still the Government Post Office and Telecommunications entity using Tax payers money. The lines belonged to us back then. The Government just gave them to Telkom when they partly privatised. We got paid nothing for them. It is only fair that the lines now revert back to the public.
Click to expand...
So sasol also belongs to us now we going to get free petrol ??
 
We aren't asking for free DSL, we are asking for the lines to be made available to other providers, seeing as they previously were governmental property.
 
LLU supposed to be in November but AFIK the ISPs havent been consulted on what bitstream equipment will be used and who will maintain it .
 
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