Mac closed ecosystem vs Andriod open ecosystem

Main benefit of open vs closed ecosystem - pronz! Seriously, probably not the best example but I get to use my phone for what I want, not what Jobsie or some other hack decided what was good for me.
 
You can go to the end of the world and back and still find no answer to your questions about this issue. The answer lies in you, what do you want? You can find all justifications for the questions you raised but at the end of the day,decision lies with you. This is just one the oldest debate that keeps us coming back to mybb to tell you make your choice and live with it. I am a happy windows person but I have like what I saw in ipad and getting myself one I was equally thrilled by my old blackberry. Its an opinion, you buy one to find if its suits your taste. trust pink forget stains, I say trust yourself forget ppl comments. Remember another mans meat another mans poison
 
Aah that is new?
It was free since the beginning, however when Apple launched the Mac app store -- for a limited time they did however charge for it in the app store. Thankfully sanity prevailed and its free again.

Although use of Xcode and the Mac / iOS SDKs are free, the ability to publish / test and app on a device is still limited to registered developers -- this being a fundamental requirement as part of the Apple's sandbox implementation.

Edit: while we on the subject is it still Mac only or do they now have versions for Windows as well?
It makes as much sense to get Xcode to work on Windows, as it does to get Visual Studio to work on OSX.

Sorry, but aside from the incalculable technical complexity (think for example about technical "impracticality" of getting the full .NET framework including the Win32 foundation dlls on OSX; Note: neither of the long standing Mono nor Wine projects have completely succeeded in this), on principle its never going to happen.


What in your view would be the incentive for Apple to do this?.
 
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For many of the iOS naysayers; its hard to argue that the Apple's solution is a well designed marriage of hardware and software, swipes and finger tracking is precise, unlike Android's lack of touch sensor and UI responsiveness.

Apple's interface is often negatively referred to by some as being simple and inflexible, but in contrast Android's interface is regarded as complex and confusing.

Many of the Android features that most people tout; appear really cool at first glance; for example: widgets -- but ultimately the cool factor will wane once you realize what a resource hog the overuse of this can become.

Btw these supposedly fancy features are no different to Apple's long standing dashboard and widgets. Ask how many Apple users make use of their dashboard and widgets every day. (I believe many of these features are synonymous with car cup holders, i.e. you either feel its important or you don't)

It should therefore make you wonder why with such an easy OSX solution to tap into (remember that iOS is essentially OSX), did Apple choose to not include a mini dashboard on iOS from the onset or at least in one of it's major revisions?

The choice I believe ultimately comes down to what you believe is important...

I for one hate the touch sensor / UI lag on Android and don't see much value in the widgets (similar to the fact that I didn't see the value in using widgets on my Mac Dashboard), hence I still believe the Android ecosystem for all it's purported openess and flexibility is still in many ways not as complete as iOS.
 
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[)roi(];7248967 said:
For many of the iOS naysayers; its hard to argue that the Apple's solution is a well designed marriage of hardware and software, swipes and finger tracking is precise, unlike Android's lack of touch sensor and UI responsiveness.

Apple's interface is often negatively referred to by some as being simple and inflexible, but in contrast Android's interface is regarded as complex and confusing.

Many of the Android features that most people tout; appear really cool at first glance; for example: widgets -- but ultimately the cool factor will wane once you realize what a resource hog the overuse of this can become.

Btw these supposedly fancy features are no different to Apple's long standing dashboard and widgets. Ask how many Apple users make use of their dashboard and widgets every day. (I believe many of these features are synonymous with car cup holders, i.e. you either feel its important or you don't)

It should therefore make you wonder why with such an easy OSX solution to tap into (remember that iOS is essentially OSX), did Apple choose to not include a mini dashboard on iOS from the onset or at least in one of it's major revisions?

The choice I believe ultimately comes down to what you believe is important...

I for one hate the touch sensor / UI lag on Android and don't see much value in the widgets (similar to the fact that I didn't see the value in using widgets on my Mac Dashboard), hence I still believe the Android ecosystem for all it's purported openess and flexibility is still in many ways not as complete as iOS.

No offence I don't know if you didn't actually pursue the links you provided but the first link "finger tracking is precise" links to a video featuring phones from 2009 {hardly a valid or fair review of today's androids}. The second link "lack of touch sensor and UI responsiveness" links into a mac blog where the guy openly admits using an iphone and quotes extremely selectively from the article he references which he may have noted {and was noted very clearly in the article he referenced} was a pre production model {which the author's of the article he referenced noted performed better at the device showing , his source was theverge {link included} I include the new review of the real model from the same site with an actual test model dated one month later, I also include his quote for comparision to the person who done the review.

The subtle, pervasive lag that has characterized the Android UI since its inception is still there, which is not a heartening thing to hear when you’re talking about a super-powered dual-core device like the Galaxy Nexus.

Link {pre production}: http://www.theverge.com/2011/10/18/galaxy-nexus-android-ice-cream-sandwich-pictures-video-hands-on/
Link {Completed Product} http://www.theverge.com/2011/11/17/2568348/galaxy-nexus-review

Quoted from completed product

As far as phone performance is concerned, however, the Galaxy Nexus feels blazingly, stupidly fast to me. Touch response is excellent on the phone — everything reacts quickly to your movements. Homescreen scrolling was snappy, moving into and out of apps was instantaneous, swiping through long lists was stutter free, and web browsing (even on heavy pages like ours) was super speedy. Game frame rates were smooth, photo viewing and editing was frictionless, and the phone handled heavy multitasking with aplomb. It's obviously a combination of great hardware and great software, but the Nexus is probably the tightest feeling, snappiest Android phone I've ever used. It's awesome.

The third link ties into an article where the author starts criticizing android first because the lock screen is to complicated for normal people "apparently" but note apple is not mentioned for patenting this {link http://www.dailytech.com/Master+of+...petoUnlock+Despite+Prior+Art/article23116.htm } thus making it almost impossible for android to make a competing system, also I have never heard of anyone being unable to figure out how the lock screen works. Then he goes on to say the name android market is misleading and complicated for ordinary people despite { http://www.pcworld.com/article/244290/apple_sues_amazon_over_app_store_name.html } apple attempting to sue amazon over using the name app store and the ability to push apps to the phone with a normal PC {if using android market is to hard}. His third problem I can't comment on, I use touchwiz and all you have to do to move apps is keep your finger on them but seeing as samsung is now the number one smart phone seller { http://www.redmondpie.com/samsung-o...ome-top-smartphone-manufacturer-in-the-world/ or at least the top android manufacturer http://memeburn.com/2011/11/nokia-still-number-one-but-feeling-heat-from-samsung-apple/ } in the world {mainly on android sales} you would think he might mention the fact that it doesn't apply to all androids {or probably even most of them}. His last comment can only be construed as positive for android and negative for iphone as he says android has better multitasking than iphone "he" just doesn't like the way you close apps in androids seemingly because android doesn't have the exit app button in corner like the iphone {which considering precedent apple would probably have sued them over anyway} and equally I could use links like the following to show apple users are having trouble closing their apps { https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3036017?start=0&tstart=0 and https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3117453?start=0&tstart=0 } but that would just be lame.

Anyway I am not trying to start a fan war just wanted to point out that a lot of the article's you referenced are extremely {and obviously} biased towards apple. Must also mention having moved from an iphone to a galaxy S2 I have not experienced any UI lag nor have I heard it said that any galaxy s2 owner has and I could also argue my iphone 3G lags horribly with IOS 4 and I have heard the same about 3GS users on IOS 5 { https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3384214?start=0&tstart=0 }, I understand samsung implement hardware acceleration in touchwiz but that is included and used by default in ice cream sandwich anyway.

Links: http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/1...am-sandwich-to-feature-hardware-acceleration/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ice-...ardware-Acceleration-Faster-Apps-231668.shtml
 
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No offence I don't know if you didn't actually pursue the links you provided but the first link "finger tracking is precise" links to a video featuring phones from 2009 {hardly a valid or fair review of today's androids}. The second link "lack of touch sensor and UI responsiveness" links into a mac blog where the guy openly admits using an iphone and quotes extremely selectively from the article...
Thanks for your response... but honestly the problems exist -- if all that'll you'll believe is what google tells you, then look at the following acknowledged bug http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914

Comment 367 as example, summarizes the situation clearly and even puts a little damper on expectations that ICS will improve this.

I'm guessing that the "lag" everyone one talks about is not going away even with HW acceleration in ICS. This is because the real issue is touch response latency. For example, the GPU may help increase the frame rate of scrolling/panning all the way to 60fps, but it probably won't help with the fact that the scrolling/panning always seems to lag or delay slightly behind the movement of your finger (at least compared to Apple products). Obviously, this becomes more apparent the faster you move your finger.

Apple must have taken great care to optimize the sequence of events that happens between the instant your finger moves on the screen to the 1st redrawn frame in response to that movement. Perhaps it isn't even handled directly in the application, but instead by some kind of tightly optimized service running inside the OS itself, with all processes/threads related to touch response given absolutely highest priority within the guts of the OS scheduler. Hell, they could even have some kind of direct communication between the touch sensor hardware and the GPU itself.

I'm sure there is room for optimization of touch latency in future versions of Android (Jelly Bean and beyond), but there may be limits that can't be broken without breaking backwards compatibility with older apps.

My final comment is a query relating to an example of this lag and stutter that we are all talking about. Why is it that even in the latest version of Google Maps for Android, panning and zooming seems to lag or stutter while waiting for map data to load? Shouldn't there be a separate high priority thread in the app responsible ONLY for panning and zooming the viewport, independent of what map data is available, even if checkerboard or blank space needs to be rendered? Instead, it seems like there are many things that can block the thread that is rending the UI.

Is this just a matter of optimization and attention to detail, or am I missing something fundamental?

... The touch screen lag is very evident, and the faults identified in the 2009 study are still very relevant for the majority of the Android devices on the market, funny enough, not everyone is sporting the latest galaxy S2 -- hence this point is very relevant and btw the touch sensor on the Galaxy S2 is still acknowledged to have a lag, maybe not as bad as some of the cheaper models.

Clearly many Android users prefer to avoid acknowledging any problems within Android (which is my point btw) -- failing to acknowledge the problems doesn't mean that they don't exist. FYI I own a Galaxy Tab 10.1; so yes I believe I am open minded ito its faults, and how this compares with the iPad.

Yes the Tab 10.1 has a tracking issue i.e. the screen updates lag behind my finger movements, definitely no where as good as the iPad.

What I find ridiculous is everyone saying one platform is better than the other by focusing solely on a few supposedly plus points (which btw are a matter of opinion) without any acknowledgement of its failings... btw iOS has many (read my previous posts, and you'll identify some of my key gripes).

To burst the Android bubble a little more, here's a new article on Galaxy Nexus and ICS -- I'll highlight some pertinent bug points...

Touch Issues still evident with the latest / greatest Galaxy + ICS
One other thing of note -- we noticed a few missed or latent presses on the touchscreen which occasionally led to stuttery behavior or an opened item that we didn't mean to tap. It's hard to say if this was a software or hardware issue (and we know that sometimes Android devices can be particularly finicky when syncing). It wasn't a deal-breaker by any means, but we saw the issue rear its head a handful of times, and felt it was worth mentioning.

Text Copy/Selection
On a slightly brighter note, there are big improvements in word suggestion and selection, including new markers which you can use to grab selections of text. Well, let's be clear -- Google still has major issues with text selection and editing on Android devices. The first striking problem is that there is not a consistent method of selecting text on the device. None. At all. In the browser, you long press on text to bring up your anchors, then drag and tap the center of your selection -- boom, copied text. In text editing fields, however, in order to select a word you must long press on the word, wait for a contextual menu to pop up, and then select "select word" -- a completely counterintuitive process. In the message app you can long press to select only the entire message, and in Google Reader? You can't select any text at all. Even worse, Gmail has a different method for selecting text from an email you're reading, and it's far more obnoxious than any of the others. There, selecting text goes from being mildly annoying to downright silly. Want to grab some text out of an email? Here's your process: hit the menu key, hit "more," hit "select text," and then finally drag your anchors out. Funnily enough, a little cursor appears when you start selecting -- a holdover from Linux? To have this many options and discrepancies over something as simple as copy and paste should be embarrassing to Google. What it mostly is, however, is a pain to the end user.

Fit and Finish Lacking
And that's kind of the crux of our problem with Android in its current state. We don't question the power of the OS, but the fit, finish, and ease of use simply is still not there. There is something disconcerting about an operating system that changes its rules from app to app -- for a mobile interface to work well, it has to be approached holistically and organically. There is something cohesive in OSs like webOS and iOS -- a language that you can easily learn to speak and feel confident about using to get what you want -- that just seems to be missing here.
 
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Fair Enough however I believe I am also quite open minded having moved from iphone to android and having used an iphone for well over 2 years, I also don't claim android doesn't have faults it does so does IOS, my point was only the reference material conveyed a bias. I can't comment on other phones this is my first android but I can say with certainty it has far less lag {in other words none} than my iphone 3G running IOS 4.

Clearly many Android users prefer to avoid acknowledging any problems within Android (which is my point btw) -- failing to acknowledge the problems doesn't mean that they don't exist. FYI I own a Galaxy Tab 10.1; so yes I believe I am open minded ito its faults, and how this compares with the iPad.

And clearly the same can be said of many IOS users, this certainly doesn't only apply to android users or even only android and IOS users it applies to all smartphone users including blackberry, symbian, IOS, android, WebOS, Bada.

Yes the Tab 10.1 has a tracking issue i.e. the screen updates lag behind my finger movements, definitely no where as good as the iPad.

Can't comment about your issue but it doesn't happen on my galaxy s2 I am actually testing this and the touch screen issue mentioned in the youtube link posted right now using amazons free app of the day, I don't own a tab so it may be a problem there.

What I find ridiculous is everyone saying one platform is better than the other by focusing solely on a few supposedly plus points (which btw are a matter of opinion) without any acknowledgement of its failings... btw iOS has many (read my previous posts, and you'll identify some of my key gripes).

Agreed I love my android but I still love my ancient iphone aswel, a large part of people trying to pick out the other platforms weaknesses is because of perceived attacks on the platform one is using, just look at our exchange over the couple of posts above, I thought you were attacking android so I defended it and you rebutted my argument again, on other forums users can easily get carried away and it becomes a competition about who shouts the loudest, longest and who manages to find the most faults of the other platform.

To burst the Android bubble a little more, here's a new article on Galaxy Nexus and ICS -- I'll highlight some pertinent bug points...

I only read the theverge review {link in post above} and he noted it was super fast, agreed it is quite easy to pick apart other platforms through like...

Iphone 4s muting calls
Some iPhone 4S users are finding that when making an outgoing call the phone mutes the handset making it impossible to hear what the person on the other end of the line is saying.

While initially considered to be just a minor issue the fault has now come under the spotlight of the Apple support forums with thousands now getting involved in the debate to try and ascertain what exactly is causing the problem. Confirmed on all three US carriers and now being picked up in the UK the fault is believed to be some form of driver issue with iOS 5.

Siri a security risk
Siri has been the subject of several reports concerning a worrying security flaw. At the press of the Home button, a person is able to send texts, emails, make calls and request calendar information without having to unlock the homescreen using a passcode.

But the setting isn't a permanent one - users have the option of switching it off by disabling the option to enable Siri at passcode lock - however, Alan Goode, managing director of mobile security firm Goode Intelligence, argues that because this setting was set at default without users' acknowledgement, many iPhone 4S owners would have been unaware of the potential risks they were exposing themselves to.

Siri not responding
When the iPhone 4S first launched last month, users took to Twitter and forums to vent their frustration at Apple’s virtual assistant application, Siri, claiming that it didn’t work. When asking a question, users were greeted with an error message informing them that the app “cannot connect to the network."

Several outlets have reported that the issue can be fixed by first turning Siri off in the settings menu, then going to Settings > General > Reset > Reset All Settings. T3 did this and found that although it reduces the frequency of the problem, it doesn’t solve the problem completely.

Link: http://www.t3.com/features/apple-iphone-4s-problems-battery-life-other-concerning-issues

All phones, OS's have issues and even through most people agree on this it's hard not to put forward your personal preference as the best option available.
 
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And clearly the same can be said of many IOS users, this certainly doesn't only apply to android users or even only android and IOS users it applies to all smartphone users including blackberry, symbian, IOS, android, WebOS, Bada.
Too true... Thanks for the interesting debate btw... :D

Can't comment about your issue but it doesn't happen on my galaxy s2 I am actually testing this and the touch screen issue mentioned in the youtube link posted right now using amazons free app of the day, I don't own a tab so it may be a problem there.
You don't have to search too hard to find these types of issues, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRXcBcpSD1w

Granted Samsung has done a lot of side work to resolve the touch lag, sensor issues, and also to implement custom UI acceleration... sadly the overall Android experience (more than just Samsung) is still not on par with iOS...

Agreed I love my android but I still love my ancient iphone aswel, a large part of people trying to pick out the other platforms weaknesses is because of perceived attacks on the platform one is using, just look at our exchange over the couple of posts above, I thought you were attacking android so I defended it and you rebutted my argument again, on other forums users can easily get carried away and it becomes a competition about who shouts the loudest, longest and who manages to find the most faults of the other platform.
I prefer to attack on both quarters i.e. iOS is not perfect and neither is Android; and I firmly believe the future health of each lies in the competition (yes that means I'm also rooting for Microsoft and too a lesser degree Blackberry).

I only read the theverge review {link in post above} and he noted it was super fast, agreed it is quite easy to pick apart other platforms through like...

Iphone 4s muting calls
Siri a security risk
Siri not responding

Link: http://www.t3.com/features/apple-iphone-4s-problems-battery-life-other-concerning-issues

All phones, OS's have issues and even through most people agree on this it's hard not to put forward your personal preference as the best option available.
Lol :D, I guess so... I just prefer less of the bubble speak (yes that account's for both side's fanboys).
 
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[)roi(];7248861 said:
It was free since the beginning, however when Apple launched the Mac app store -- for a limited time they did however charge for it in the app store. Thankfully sanity prevailed and its free again.
Yes they did. Five dollars. For over a gigabyte's worth of code. The horror! :sick:
 
Talking about input lag on Android:

You dont notice the problem in general but when it does show its ugly head it can drive you up walls. I have always been a HTC person and loved my Desire and HD. On both I rarerly if even noticed the lag, mostly it was just frame drops once in a while so I was relatively happy.

BUT

I recently got a Sony Ericson Xperia Play and on Paper it has the same CPU specs than my Desire HD, so you would think the experience is the same, Not the case!!! This fking phone will drive me up the walls if I had to pay the same for it as I did for my DHD. The Sony cost me R2K and the DHD cost me R6K. Every now and then I have to repeat key presses and sometimes have to wait for screen loads, on games if I play Spirit if have to pause and move my finger on the touch screen to be in sync with the avatar, something I am not use to on the Android platform. If this was my 1st phone and I had to compare it to my iPhone 4 it would most probably have been my last Android as well.

I really dont understand why some OEM's can get it right while others fail so miserably. So I guess this is just to mark the one downside of a Open Platform. The experience is not Universal, with a closed system like iPhone you know what you going to get, and the experience is the same across the entire user base, not so on Android.
 
Talking about input lag on Android:

You dont notice the problem in general but when it does show its ugly head it can drive you up walls. I have always been a HTC person and loved my Desire and HD. On both I rarerly if even noticed the lag, mostly it was just frame drops once in a while so I was relatively happy.

BUT

I recently got a Sony Ericson Xperia Play and on Paper it has the same CPU specs than my Desire HD, so you would think the experience is the same, Not the case!!! This fking phone will drive me up the walls if I had to pay the same for it as I did for my DHD. The Sony cost me R2K and the DHD cost me R6K. Every now and then I have to repeat key presses and sometimes have to wait for screen loads, on games if I play Spirit if have to pause and move my finger on the touch screen to be in sync with the avatar, something I am not use to on the Android platform. If this was my 1st phone and I had to compare it to my iPhone 4 it would most probably have been my last Android as well.

I really dont understand why some OEM's can get it right while others fail so miserably. So I guess this is just to mark the one downside of a Open Platform. The experience is not Universal, with a closed system like iPhone you know what you going to get, and the experience is the same across the entire user base, not so on Android.
You hit the nail on the head... (Android's experience is too varied)

Imo Google being the OS custodian should take more responsibility for this.
 
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[)roi(];7254629 said:
You hit the nail on the head... (Android's experience is too varied)

Imo Google being the OS custodian should take more responsibility for this.

I wonder how much of it is really Google's fault than our own. I personally believe the problem is more with the end users.

We expect to pay half the price for a product but what the same quality out of it, and its not only phones, we see it all around us from lights and TV's to microwaves. For example a couple of years ago there where energy saver lights for R120+ that had 15 years guarantee on them, but we opted for the cheaper R20 ones until you could no longer find the long life lamps, yet we complain that the R20 ones dont last as long as the old days.

In the case of my Sony phone I wanted the same quality and performance out of something that sells for R3000 vs the HTC that sold for R6000. Yes and I learned my lesson yesterday when I placed the Sony in my denim pocket with my keys..... BAD mistake. I can now only swear at myself looking at a scratched LCD, esp seeing that I was to lazy to stick the screen protector on that was in the box. I though my HTC did not need one so why worry about the Sony.

Maybe the onus is on us to vote with our wallets for quality hardware to get quality performance. Like the age old saying goes, you get what you pay for.
 
I wonder how much of it is really Google's fault than our own. I personally believe the problem is more with the end users.

We expect to pay half the price for a product but what the same quality out of it, and its not only phones, we see it all around us from lights and TV's to microwaves. For example a couple of years ago there where energy saver lights for R120+ that had 15 years guarantee on them, but we opted for the cheaper R20 ones until you could no longer find the long life lamps, yet we complain that the R20 ones dont last as long as the old days.

In the case of my Sony phone I wanted the same quality and performance out of something that sells for R3000 vs the HTC that sold for R6000. Yes and I learned my lesson yesterday when I placed the Sony in my denim pocket with my keys..... BAD mistake. I can now only swear at myself looking at a scratched LCD, esp seeing that I was to lazy to stick the screen protector on that was in the box. I though my HTC did not need one so why worry about the Sony.

Maybe the onus is on us to vote with our wallets for quality hardware to get quality performance. Like the age old saying goes, you get what you pay for.
Not sure it's that easy... This approach would imply that everyone needs to get burnt at least once; surely consumer protection laws should require that products actually lived up to the hype.

Remember the manufacturers & Google create this hype -- why therefore should anyone expect anything but perfection?

They have to take accountability for the overall experience; say what you will about for example Blackberry; at least their cheaper phones tend to deliver a consistent experience; wouldn't it be nice if Android did the same?
 
[)roi(];7254629 said:
Imo Google being the OS custodian should take more responsibility for this.

So Google needs to take responsibility for the poor drivers manufacturers write for their own hardware? You forget that for the past two decades, these companies have proven themselves horribly inept of writing decent software.

...esp seeing that I was to lazy to stick the screen protector on that was in the box. I though my HTC did not need one so why worry about the Sony.

It's hard to feel confident about the build quality if the manufacturer includes a screen protector in the box...
 
So Google needs to take responsibility for the poor drivers manufacturers write for their own hardware? You forget that for the past two decades, these companies have proven themselves horribly inept of writing decent software.
Yes of course that's what I mean... If they are truly committed to making Android a successful (as they often claim to be) -- then they should have a vested interest in making in work consistently.

Microsoft with Windows, initially left all the work to the manufacturers; was anybody surprised that the overall quality was improved when Microsoft took responsibility to either develop or certify for their OS.

Google's Android is following a similar paradigm to Windows, hence it's wrong for them to try to step away from accountability, unless of course they prefer users to have a mixed and messy experience.
 
http://flyosity.com/iphone/androids-touch-responsiveness-is-terrible.php
The subtle, pervasive lag that has characterized the Android UI since its inception is still there, which is not a heartening thing to hear when you’re talking about a super-powered dual-core device like the Galaxy Nexus.
http://www.theverge.com/2011/10/18/galaxy-nexus-android-ice-cream-sandwich-pictures-video-hands-on/

Totally ****ing unacceptable. Imagine if your mouse cursor couldn't keep up with your hand movements, or if letters didn't appear on the screen until a moment after you pressed your keyboard. That's how egregious of a user experience problem this is. If a user interface doesn't respond as quickly as possible to a user's intentions and movements, it's a pile of rubbish. Immediate touch response has been solved by Apple for years, why can't Google and Samsung and Motorola and HTC solve it as well?
This type on sentiment summarizes why this problem is Google's to address. Saying that this is open source software is just avoidance of responsibility -- which helps no-one and only serves to extend the time of that the platform is disadvantaged. Fix it already! :(
 
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