Mac closed ecosystem vs Andriod open ecosystem

[StellenboschStudent]

I am sure there is a couple of threads that discuss this same point, but I was simply to lazy to search.

I recently finished reading Steve Jobs biobraphy (good read) and it got me thinking about the closed vs open ecosystems.

If one looks at Android now, the phones are not that much cheaper than the iPhone, so you don't save money buying into the open ecosystem. Andriod is very fragmented, but that will always happen with an open ecosystem. Android gives you more control and optimisation...

The iPhone works great, apps run smoothly but is the screening of apps and the closed ecosystem a good thing. Is it becoming too much? In the book they tell about some political app they banned due to some statements in the app, but later they realised their mistake and allowed the app. How often does that happen? Why aren't we allowed to see these apps (you can jailbreak and see them)? It is nice that everything plays together real nice and everything works.

I am very much caught in the middle. I love my iPhone, I want to try Android but I don't want to bind myself to a 2 year contract and after two months I hate the phone... Do you think Google buying Motorola will lead to Motorola phones being the better Android phones. Will google tailermake Android to run smoothley on the Motorola phones?

 

[Dolby]

As you say, there are pros and cons of both.

I love the fact that with a closed system, things just work. The software is designed for the hardware - and everything just gels together perfectly. When it comes to the App Store, I am confident that whatever I get will work and has been tested and approved by Apple. There is no worrying about rogue code or inefficient programming, memory leaks or virus

Has it gone too far? Yes

Everything I don't like about the iPad is built in and designed that way. I don't like the fact that Apple tells me what my desktop must look like, what I must download and how I must use it.

His 1984 advert is ironic ... ... Big Brother .... breaking away against the corporate .... keeping individuality .... getting away from the Orwellian system - yet we sit going into 2012 with millions of Apple users having the same looking system with zero individuality and being dictated to

 

[bwana]

Why call it the Mac ecosystem when you can only possibly mean iOS?

 

[StellenboschStudent]

It isn't just iOS... the mac app store has all the same rules and regulations.

 

[bwana]

It isn't just iOS... the mac app store has all the same rules and regulations.

The app store might but anyone can develop for osx and sell through whatever mechanism they so desire.

EDIT: Furthermore Apple happily gives away the tools needed to develop for OsX - XCode.

 

[bdt]

... and it got me thinking about the closed vs open ecosystems.

Sounds like you should read the canonical (AFAIK) essay on the subject: The Cathedral and the Bazaar

If one looks at Android now, the phones are not that much cheaper than the iPhone, so you don't save money buying into the open ecosystem. Andriod is very fragmented, but that will always happen with an open ecosystem. Android gives you more control and optimisation...

Well, consider that your'e talking about fondleslabs either way, which means they're using much the same construction and parts. Or look at it this way: petrol vs diesel engine - either way you're in the business of making an engine which means you're looking at much the same manufacturing processes and costs. That said, in an open ecosystem you are at least not BOUND (which I mean in the tied up sense) to do things in the way that they allow yoo to.

The iPhone works great, apps run smoothly but is the screening of apps and the closed ecosystem a good thing. Is it becoming too much? In the book they tell about some political app they banned due to some statements in the app, but later they realised their mistake and allowed the app. How often does that happen? Why aren't we allowed to see these apps (you can jailbreak and see them)? It is nice that everything plays together real nice and everything works.

Yes, it's all well and good to have that sanitised perfection but here's a real-world example of when that becomes a burden: on my Android brick I've got a keyboard with Swype running as my default input method and, for the hell of it and just because I could I've got 8pen loaded because I MUST.see what it looks like ...now try do that with an iToy. Note: I recently had to load an iPad for a worker at the office and I came up entirely short on finding something, ANYTHING better than that craptacular on-screen keyboard ..YMMV. And then there's the mandatory you-have-NO-choice-but-do-these-steps to even get to USE the thing as you switch it on for the first time, ARGH!

I am very much caught in the middle. I love my iPhone, I want to try Android but I don't want to bind myself to a 2 year contract and after two months I hate the phone

And I am crystal clear, you can stay in your shiny white prison with your infuriating iToy while I am free to do what ever the hell I want with my 'droid.

 

[StellenboschStudent]

Sounds like you should read the canonical (AFAIK) essay on the subject: The Cathedral and the Bazaar



Well, consider that your'e talking about fondleslabs either way, which means they're using much the same construction and parts. Or look at it this way: petrol vs diesel engine - either way you're in the business of making an engine which means you're looking at much the same manufacturing processes and costs. That said, in an open ecosystem you are at least not BOUND (which I mean in the tied up sense) to do things in the way that they allow yoo to.

Yes, it's all well and good to have that sanitised perfection but here's a real-world example of when that becomes a burden: on my Android brick I've got a keyboard with Swype running as my default input method and, for the hell of it and just because I could I've got 8pen loaded because I MUST.see what it looks like ...now try do that with an iToy. Note: I recently had to load an iPad for a worker at the office and I came up entirely short on finding something, ANYTHING better than that craptacular on-screen keyboard ..YMMV. And then there's the mandatory you-have-NO-choice-but-do-these-steps to even get to USE the thing as you switch it on for the first time, ARGH!

And I am crystal clear, you can stay in your shiny white prison with your infuriating iToy while I am free to do what ever the hell I want with my 'droid.

I should have put thread in PD section. I am happy with the onscreen keyboard, it works, not he best not the worst.
Anyway, at the end of the day most people won't realise the fragmentation on android. most people won't realise the closed system apple provides... only us geeks will have a problem with each.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Cast your mind back a few years when the only "open" system was Windows Mobile, and every other phone came with whatever the manufacturer put on it and you had no choice but to use it that way. Funny how we didn't have this open vs closed system debate back then.

It don't really get why people get upset with not being able to change the look of their phone screen. It's cosmetic. It's a bit like painting your car red and putting on a spoiler kit. It doesn't make it go any faster, handle better, use less fuel, or protect you any better in a crash. All it does is make you look like another all-flash-and-no-substance idiot.

 

[Dolby]

It don't really get why people get upset with not being able to change the look of their phone screen. It's cosmetic.

Not really :/

My friend has everything he wants on a single screen, constantly displayed so he doesn't have to touch the screen at all. At a single glance, he can see the top news, share price or a few others.

I pick it the iPad - click Bloomberg, click My Shares ... then click 'home' ... next screen ... click 'News24'.

It's more of a convenience factor than cosmetic

 

[Elimentals]

EDIT: Furthermore Apple happily gives away the tools needed to develop for OsX - XCode.

Dont know about that, from my memory they only do so because they where forced to. I remember a certain Anti trust case re development suite?

 

[bwana]

Dont know about that, from my memory they only do so because they where forced to. I remember a certain Anti trust case re development suite?

I can't find any references to support your recollection but that's not to say it didn't happen.

Not really :/

My friend has everything he wants on a single screen, constantly displayed so he doesn't have to touch the screen at all. At a single glance, he can see the top news, share price or a few others.

I pick it the iPad - click Bloomberg, click My Shares ... then click 'home' ... next screen ... click 'News24'.

It's more of a convenience factor than cosmetic

Why don't you just swipe from one application to another?

 

[Dolby]

I could do that - staring at the screen with all info still trumps scrolling to apps though

 

[Elimentals]

Cast your mind back a few years when the only "open" system was Windows Mobile, and every other phone came with whatever the manufacturer put on it and you had no choice but to use it that way. Funny how we didn't have this open vs closed system debate back then.

Windows Mobile has no idea what open is, sure it had some of the factors that we see in a open system but it was in no way open. Its not like you can go and edit the code and write your own driver for another device, or that you can change how the kernel itself behaves? Windows Mobile was just as open as a Jailbroken iOS device is today and from a developer/oem point of view that's pretty closed down.

It don't really get why people get upset with not being able to change the look of their phone screen. It's cosmetic. It's a bit like painting your car red and putting on a spoiler kit. It doesn't make it go any faster, handle better, use less fuel, or protect you any better in a crash. All it does is make you look like another all-flash-and-no-substance idiot.

Openness goes way beyond the mere allowance of changing the cosmetic.

Its about using more than 1 market, so you not forced into a monopolistic model where you have no option but pay the price mentioned. Android have multipal markets for example Amazon, Getjar, Google, SlideMe and dont forget the OEM and SP markets as well. All of them fighting for my attention with specials and there own hot deals, like Amazon's free app of the day or Getjar's gold system.

Its about not waiting for a single source of hardware so I am not forced to go with a certain look or size because there is no other. From screen size to form factor and constant releases to try and one up each other OEM's bring such a variety that I can go for what appeals to me not someone else, today its the Sony Xperia Play with PlayStation controls tomorrow its a 4.6" curved Nexus with 1080p display and NFS.

Its about adding functionality that dont require me to wait for the OEM's, like a firewall that control what app uses what data or being able to add pppoe functionality so I can use ADSL from my phone, its about being able to add support for a PS3 controller if I want it.

Simply put its about placing choice in my hands and not that of a dictator that decides for me.

 

[Elimentals]

I can't find any references to support your recollection but that's not to say it didn't happen.

I cant find the 1st one from back in 2007 but here is another:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...22553091495816.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTWhatsNews

Why don't you just swipe from one application to another?

Talk about swipe, man I loooove Androids swipe keyboard, its is for me the best system ever dont know why others dont follow.

 

[bwana]

I cant find the 1st one from back in 2007 but here is another:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...22553091495816.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTWhatsNews

Even so from what I understand they've been giving xcode away since OsX debuted back in 2003? Seven years before the article.

Talk about swipe, man I loooove Androids swipe keyboard, its is for me the best system ever dont know why others dont follow.

I'd rather be able to use Siri on my ipad tbh. For the kind of task I usually use a keyboard for it would be ideal.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Windows Mobile has no idea what open is, sure it had some of the factors that we see in a open system but it was in no way open.

There's a reason why I put "open" in quotes. Read my comment and the comments before that again. Maybe you'll figure out what I was on about.

Openness goes way beyond the mere allowance of changing the cosmetic.

Yes, but that's the only reason everyone here can seem to think of. It's always about customizing the UI, which is something Windows Mobile was pretty good for. Even a very technically challenged friend of mine was able to get similar things going as Dolby described. And this was in 2007.

Its about not waiting for a single source of hardware

But, unless you blow away the OS and load an image from a 3rd party (which might involve jailbreaking your phone and trusting an unknown party), you're stuck waiting for three sources - Google, vendor and mobile network - to all get their act together at the same time to get security fixes on your phone.

 

[Elimentals]

Even so from what I understand they've been giving xcode away since OsX debuted back in 2003? Seven years before the article.

Sorry I think I missred your original point, I we referring to using 3rd party suites to develop for xcode. Any case Xcode is not free, you have to join the developer program at a annual rate to download it for "free"

I'd rather be able to use Siri on my ipad tbh. For the kind of task I usually use a keyboard for it would be ideal.

Well its 2 totally different concepts, Voice as input does work on both and yes I get what you saying that Siri is better right now, well that is when it works but I was referring to text input by hand.

And no I dont feel like making this a pissing contest on who has the best tools, I was just stating that I swish they included it already. Every time I work with my iPhone I feel like an idiot when halfway through swipeing a word I realize its the wrong phone.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Sorry I think I missred your original point, I we referring to using 3rd party suites to develop for xcode. Any case Xcode is not free, you have to join the developer program at a annual rate to download it for "free"

Not true - http://developer.apple.com/xcode/ says:

"If you are not an iOS or Mac Developer Program member, you can download Xcode 4.2 for Lion from the Mac App Store for free."

 

[bwana]

Sorry I think I missred your original point, I we referring to using 3rd party suites to develop for xcode. Any case Xcode is not free, you have to join the developer program at a annual rate to download it for "free"

It's free to download and it comes on the installation DVDs.

I don't have a developer account.

 

[Elimentals]

Not true - http://developer.apple.com/xcode/ says:

"If you are not an iOS or Mac Developer Program member, you can download Xcode 4.2 for Lion from the Mac App Store for free."

Aah that is new?

In June 2010 at the World Wide Developers Conference, Apple announced version 4 of Xcode during the Developer Tools State of the Union address. Version 4 of the developer tools consolidates the Xcode editing tools and Interface Builder into a single application, among other enhancements.[12][13] A GM seed was posted on February 4, 2011; although it was only available as a download to registered iOS/Mac Developer Program members, it was leaked on numerous download websites.[14] A second golden master seed was released to developers on March 3, 2011 in conjunction with the golden master seed of iOS 4.3. Apple released the final code for Xcode 4.0 on March 9, 2011. The software was made available for free to all registered members of the $99 per year Mac Developer program and the $99 per year iOS Developer program. It was also sold for $4.99 to non-members on the Mac App Store (no longer available). As of July 20, 2011 (the day of Mac OS X Lion's release), Xcode 4.1 was made available for free to all users on Mac OS X Lion on the Mac App Store. On August 29, 2011, Xcode 4.1 was made available for Mac OS X Snow Leopard for members of the paid Mac or iOS developer programs. On October 12, 2011, Xcode 4.2 was released concurrently with the release of iOS 5.0, it included many more and improved features like storyboarding and automatic correction. Xcode 4.2 is now free on the Mac app store like Xcode 4.1

Edit: while we on the subject is it still Mac only or do they now have versions for Windows as well?