Manual vs Automatic

[asshat99]

The point is a "MT" will lurch forward and die within a meter. The Auto will take off and keep going --- The driver has to react. I will grant you that I was exaggerating a little bit. But then, there are quite a few examples around form all over the world about what happens when an AT simply does its own thing.

Dude, you are clueless.

These unguided automatics are such a huge problem on our roads lol.

 

[Neuk_]

At this point, I am not even sure this guy has driven a car. I would say my manual is far more likely to lurch forward into something due to a foot slip than my auto.

Counter Ford's garbage DCT with countless stories of clutches being burnt out by novices.

Driving engagement is not relevant to 90 percent of drivers. It is impossible to achieve with 99 percent of cars (which are designed to be mommy mobile shopping carts). Just accept most cars are appliances.

Burnt out clutches on DCT gearboxes are fairly common to all makes, most owners treat them like automatics with torque converters, creeping in heavy traffic which drags the clutches.

 

[Geoff.D]

Burnt out clutches on DCT gearboxes are fairly common to all makes, most owners treat them like automatics with torque converters, creeping in heavy traffic which drags the clutches.

Precisely!

Thanks for confirming my views. "Now you have a computer riding the clutch" is what I said.

A dual-clutch transmission (DCT, Volkswagen DSG, Porsche PDK) is essentially a computer-operated manual transmission with two clutches (one for odd gears, one for even gears).

What IS the correct driver action supposed to be in traffic when driving a car with a DCT gearbox? What would you do when driving one of these DCT equipped vehicles?

And secondly, how was the driver informed/told/trained how to drive a DCT equipped car in heavy traffic???

Yeah I know ---- the Snake Oil car salesman told him or her "its an automatic, just get in and drive".
Oh Sorry, he might have said "take it out of Neutral/park and put it into "drive"".

 

[Neuk_]

Precisely!

Thanks for confirming my views. "Now you have a computer riding the clutch" is what I said.

I have confirmed nothing for you, the issue is entirely related to driver misuse and not an inherent fault of a DCT gearbox.

What IS the correct driver action supposed to be in traffic when driving a car with a DCT gearbox?

Don't crawl in traffic like you would when driving an automatic fitted with a torque converter. Wait for space to clear up ahead, release the brake fully allowing the clutch pack to engage and then use light throttle to move forward.

P.S. The definition you quoted of a DCT box is horribly wrong.

 

[asshat99]

Burnt out clutches on DCT gearboxes are fairly common to all makes, most owners treat them like automatics with torque converters, creeping in heavy traffic which drags the clutches.

No, Fords powershits problems are much much deeper than just that.

What IS the correct driver action supposed to be in traffic when driving a car with a DCT gearbox?

And secondly, how was the driver informed/told/trained how to drive a DCT equipped car in heavy traffic???

By reading the owner's manual. Or by being informed of the basics. And not letting a DCT creep like all the competent elite manual drivers do by slipping the clutch. Where have you been for the last 15 years? Can you honestly say you are qualified to express an opinion if you don't know this stuff?

 

[Geoff.D]

No, Fords powershits problems are much much deeper than just that.

By reading the owner's manual. Or by being informed of the basics. And not letting a DCT creep like all the competent elite manual drivers do by slipping the clutch. Where have you been for the last 15 years? Can you honestly say you are qualified to express an opinion if you don't know this stuff?

Oh, the master of comprehension at work again. Can't even detect mild levels of sarcasm in my comment Brilliant!

For your benefit, the above comment directed at YOU is laced with sarcasm and disdain at the absolutely pathetic language abilities you are exhibiting.

 

[asshat99]

Oh, the master of comprehension at work again. Can't even detect mild levels of sarcasm in my comment Brilliant!

For your benefit, the above comment directed at YOU is laced with sarcasm and disdain at the absolutely pathetic language abilities you are exhibiting.

Okay,
So far we have a guy who:
Doesn't know much about modern cars by his own admission.
Thinks modern fancy BMWs can't maintain speed on a slight slope.
Thinks some incompetence causes the auto car to be unable to maintain speed despite it being floored.
Claims he does not play stupid racing games with said BMW despite describing it exactly.
Doesn't know how to drive a DCT
Thinks an automatic car lurches forward when you take the foot off the pedal.
Changes his story frequently.
Avoids his stupid comments and just builds on them.

Sorry, can't take you seriously boomer.

 

[Geoff.D]

I have confirmed nothing for you, the issue is entirely related to driver misuse and not an inherent fault of a DCT gearbox.



Don't crawl in traffic like you would when driving an automatic fitted with a torque converter. Wait for space to clear up ahead, release the brake fully allowing the clutch pack to engage and then use light throttle to move forward.

P.S. The definition you quoted of a DCT box is horribly wrong.

My point has always been about the availability of "cheap automatics" coupled with poor driver training.
The DCT box is as with many of the other "automatics" a sophisticated piece of machinery that needs very specific training on how to use properly!

Your comment on how to drive one:
For that to work with a driver under training would mean:
1. He/she is familiar with a normal auto box using a torque convertor
2. Familiar that a proper auto can "crawl" in traffic.
3. Wait for space to clear up ahead.-- Sure that will work in this country what with all you guys in your autos to get upset.
4. Release the brake fully etc etc. --- hmmm sure, next time you go car hunting see if this is what the salesman tells you.
5. Use light throttle to move ahead with a pack of baying hounds in their BMWs cursing you at the back, especially in the fast lane.

That will work very well on the longest parking garage in SA -----

6. Oh, they have to RTFM!!! Who does that these days?? Not you wet behind the ears lot that is for sure. That is the prerogative of us old-timers who have a healthy respect for machinery of all kinds.

So, here is your chance oh mighty authority on automatic gearboxes - give us a better non-horribly wrong definition of a DCT gearbox. I am waiting ------

 

[asshat99]

My point has always been about the availability of "cheap automatics" coupled with poor driver training.
The DCT box is as with many of the other "automatics" a sophisticated piece of machinery that needs very specific training on how to use properly!

Your comment on how to drive one:
For that to work with a driver under training would mean:
1. He/she is familiar with a normal auto box using a torque convertor
2. Familiar that a proper auto can "crawl" in traffic.
3. Wait for space to clear up ahead.-- Sure that will work in this country what with all you guys in your autos to get upset.
4. Release the brake fully etc etc. --- hmmm sure, next time you go car hunting see if this is what the salesman tells you.
5. Use light throttle to move ahead with a pack of baying hounds in their BMWs cursing you at the back, especially in the fast lane.

That will work very well on the longest parking garage in SA -----

6. Oh, they have to RTFM!!! Who does that these days?? Not you wet behind the ears lot that is for sure. That is the prerogative of us old-timers who have a healthy respect for machinery of all kinds.

So, here is your chance oh mighty authority on automatic gearboxes - give us a better non-horribly wrong definition of a DCT gearbox. I am waiting ------

Lies again. That is not what you said.

3-6 - literally applies to manuals too. Or do you slip clutch the whole time?

Yes, you need so much extra training to drive an auto. This is why you can drive a manual on an auto only license... oh wait...

Who tells a manual driver not to slip the clutch? Nobody right.

Shame. This is just an old guy in a crappy bakkie trying to convince himself he is an elite driver because he drives a manual - besting fancy BMWs up slight hills.

 

[Deandbn]

I think all cars should change their own gears in the 21st century.. And the more gears the better.

 

[Geoff.D]

@Neuk:

Here is a cut n paste out of an article written by someone talking about one or another VW DCT vehicle from a site that specialises in car topics:

Can you drive a dual clutch like an automatic?
Is any learning required for driving with a dual clutch transmission compared to driving with an automatic transmission?
Answer gven:
No, a driver can use it exactly like an automatic transmission if they want to. There are two pedals, and one can just push the shifter into Drive and go

Hmmm. Clearly, that author did not go to the @Neuk School of advanced driving!

So what now? Why are DCT boxes burning out their clutches??? Is it the el-cheapo DCT box or driver training or a combination of both?
Or, maybe it is simply the fact that DCT boxes are not really suitable for use on busy highways in urban areas? Yes??? No??? Maybe Hmmm

 

[SauRoNZA]

I have not once backpedalled. My view stands. the low-end low power cars with "automatic transmissions" are a curse on the roads. And even upmarket automatics in the hands of incompetent drivers are also.

And I'll reiterate that it has nothing at all to do with gearboxes and simply drivers being **** drivers.

But that's the end of that, I give up.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Nice back track. What can an 'incompetent' auto BMW driver who is flooring it and 'going crazy' do to prevent himself from over taking your old bakkie by maintaining speed? What skill is there that he is somehow missing? You said he was flooring it. Was he pulling the handbrake (nope - car won't let you do that)? Standing on the brake pedal at the same time (nope - car won't let you do that)? What super 'ware petrol kop' skill is this incompetent BMW driver missing? What is he doing wrong? What competence do you need to maintain speed on that little slope?

Small manuals are a curse. We see the Vivos and old bakkies and the traffic jams they cause.

Honestly, this is just cringy. As are your BMW racing stories.

Actually you can use the handbrake and brake just fine while using the throttle.

It's how the launch control works on most of the sporty cars and how you hard launch anything else.

You hold your foot on the left (brake) pedal and wind it up with the throttle and then release.

The only difference would be a car with an electronic hand brake obviously.

 

[SauRoNZA]

@Neuk:

Here is a cut n paste out of an article written by someone talking about one or another VW DCT vehicle from a site that specialises in car topics:



Hmmm. Clearly, that author did not go to the @Neuk School of advanced driving!

So what now? Why are DCT boxes burning out their clutches??? Is it the el-cheapo DCT box or driver training or a combination of both?
Or, maybe it is simply the fact that DCT boxes are not really suitable for use on busy highways in urban areas? Yes??? No??? Maybe Hmmm

It's the difference between dry clutch DCT's as found in the problematic Ford's we've already covered or the wet clutch DSG which doesn't suffer these problems but has expensive oil that needs replacing.

Conclusion: Ford is just ****, automatics as a whole are just fine.

A DCT is not a DCT is not a DCT, just like a manual isn't a manual isn't a manual.

 

[asshat99]

I think all cars should change their own gears in the 21st century.. And the more gears the better.

Yes, but too many gears is just ridiculous.

Constant gear changing is just annoying. Especially on a car with bad sound proofing and not perfectly smooth shifting.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Dude, you are clueless.

These unguided automatics are such a huge problem on our roads lol.

Rampant autonomous automatic cars everywhere, destroying our roads and peaceful countrysides.

Maybe he watched one too many Transformers movies and Michael Bay got to him.

 

[Geoff.D]

It's the difference between dry clutch DCT's as found in the problematic Ford's we've already covered or the wet clutch DSG which doesn't suffer these problems but has expensive oil that needs replacing.

Conclusion: Ford is just ****, automatics as a whole are just fine.

A DCT is not a DCT is not a DCT, just like a manual isn't a manual isn't a manual.

Precisely! The variants within the main theme are numerous on both side of the argument and within the many different "automatics"

But then, I am not supposed to know anything about "automatics" as I don't and won't drive them !

{@ASS HAT number 99} Sarcasm in case you miss it again.

 

[SauRoNZA]

I have confirmed nothing for you, the issue is entirely related to driver misuse and not an inherent fault of a DCT gearbox.



Don't crawl in traffic like you would when driving an automatic fitted with a torque converter. Wait for space to clear up ahead, release the brake fully allowing the clutch pack to engage and then use light throttle to move forward.

P.S. The definition you quoted of a DCT box is horribly wrong.

Heh? I put 200,000km on a DSG much of it in heavy traffic and never did any of the above as it's simply not necessary.

The clutch engages fully when the brake is released and then you don't need any throttle to move forward as there is enough torque from idle to do so, not slipping of clutch required.

Inversely when the brake is pressed and the car comes to a complete halt the clutch is disengaged, which is why on cars without Hillstart assist it rolls back ever so slightly like any manual would if you let it go....hence you use the handbrake like you would in a manual car unless you have hillstart that is.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Precisely! The variants within the main theme are numerous on both side of the argument and within the manay different "automatics"

We've been making the distinctions every step of the way, you've been the one throwing blanket statements around about "automatics" in quotes for some bizarre reason.

 

[SauRoNZA]

@Neuk:
Hmmm. Clearly, that author did not go to the @Neuk School of advanced driving!

So what now? Why are DCT boxes burning out their clutches??? Is it the el-cheapo DCT box or driver training or a combination of both?
Or, maybe it is simply the fact that DCT boxes are not really suitable for use on busy highways in urban areas? Yes??? No??? Maybe Hmmm

Outside of the dry clutch Fords I have actually not heard of DCT's burning out their clutches pre-maturely.

In my experience, the average clutch on a manual gearbox lasts about 120-150k km and then requires replacement and I've not heard of DCT's getting it replaced by then but instead much later.

So at least from my personal experience with a DSG I can say no special treatment whatsoever is required to make it last other than using the handbrake at inclines like you would on a full manual car...IF you don't have hillstart that does that stuff for you.

DSG/S-Tronics are just fine for urban highway use. It's become clear however that Ford's Powershift is a little bit **** and not coping well with it for whatever reason.