Many bugs in 3.08

TheShogun said:
Just a reminder that Expertise has 2 caps. There is a cap to remove the bosses ability to Dodge which is the cap for Melee DPS. It's 26 Expertise Rating I think.
Tanks have a higher Expertise cap as they need to remove the bosses Parry as well.
I can't remember what the Parry Cap is though but think along the lines of 46 Expertise Rating.
Click to expand...

Which I mentioned

Softcaps
6%-8% Dodge ( varying by boss )
15% for parry

Use your racials and talents to tally up Expertise %
 
PsyWulf said:
One of my mates over with tankingtips reminded me of an old question regarding 1roll/2roll attacktables and after that I went and checked the numbers a bit which confirmed 1roll attacktables.

He coined the term "effective hit"

1% Expertise = 1%Hit for effective hit,however
1% Expertise also reduces chance to be parried/dodged so then effectively speaking Expertise is more valuable than hit point for point

So not only will your attacks land just as often when you reduce boss dodge/parry rather than stacking hit,but your chance of being parry-gibbed is lessened making expertise > hit

He had far more elegant calculations but thats the gist of it
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I would like to see his calculations if possible
 
Wall of text incoming

http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/

Expertise is always better than Hit

A very common question I’m often asked is, “How much Hit do I need?” Similar questions revolve around how to socket for it, enchant for it, etc. I can’t help, but wonder whether these people understand that Expertise Rating is always better than Hit Rating. The reality is sometimes they do understand this and sometimes they don’t. The issue can be not only being misinformed on the two stats, but also that simply the terminology around the two stats is difficult to discuss. After all, when we talk about Expertise Rating giving twice as much Hit as Hit Rating until the Dodge cap is reached… what are we even saying?
“Effective Hit”

The term, Effective Hit, was suggested by a reader (Ironhusk) and it’s definitely the best solution I’ve seen to the terminology issue. So, let’s define it:

Effective Hit ~ The total additional chance for a tank to land an attack on a mob determined by adding the percentage gains of both Expertise and Hit Rating.

Perhaps that could be a bit better worded, but regardless I’m getting a little ahead of myself.
Expertise Explained

When we discuss Expertise by itself or in relation to Hit, we generally talk about 2 caps. The Dodge cap is the amount of Expertise Rating required so that our abilities will not be Dodged. The other cap is the Parry cap and like it sounds, is the amount of Expertise Rating required so that our abilities will not be Parried. The reason we discuss 2 caps for a single stat is because 1 Expertise Skill reduces the mobs chance to Dodge our attacks by 0.25% and it also reduces the mobs chance to Parry our attacks by 0.25%. Where it gets confusing is that bosses have higher chances to Parry than to Dodge our attacks.
Why does bosses having different Parry & Dodge chances matter?

It matters because the fact that it works that way results in Expertise Rating offering twice as much Effective Hit (now you know why we had to define this early) as a similar amount of Hit rating until the Dodge cap is reached and exactly the same amount of Effective Hit as Hit Rating after the Dodge cap has been passed as we make our way to the Parry cap.

A mouthful, I know. It’s a little easier to understand if we lay out some facts.

32.79 Hit rating = 1% Hit
32.79 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise Skill = 1% Dodge reduction & 1% Parry reduction
Showing the Expertise “effect”

Note: None of the Effective Hit values below include the additional 3% Effective Hit towards Expertise offered by 3/3 Vitality, I’ll clarify why after the following examples.

A. Small Values + 3/3 Vitality
+100 Hit Rating = 3.05% Effective Hit
+100 Expertise Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit

B. Higher Values + 3/3 Vitality
+200 Hit Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit
+200 Expertise Rating = 11.10% Effective Hit

C. Assuming we already have 100 Expertise Rating + 3/3 Vitality
+200 Hit Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit
+200 Expertise Rating = 8.05% Effective Hit

D. Assuming we already have 164 Expertise Rating + 3/3 Vitality
+200 Hit Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit
+200 Expertise Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit

E. Assuming we already have 200 Expertise Rating + 3/3 Vitality
+200 Hit Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit
+200 Expertise Rating = 6.10% Effective Hit
Explaining the Expertise “effect”

Example A is a perfect example of just how strong Expertise is when you’re still under the Dodge cap. Example B illustrates that once we pass the Dodge cap threshold that Expertise no longer provides twice as much Effective Hit as Hit rating. Example C further reinforces what’s being illustrated in Example B. Example D shows that additional Expertise and Hit rating offer the exact same amount of Effective Hit after the Dodge cap has been completely surpassed. Finally, Example E illustrates that the equality in Effective Hit between the two stats is maintained even at higher starting Expertise values.

As you’ve noticed, I’ve factored 3/3 Vitality into all these comparisons. If I had not, it would have not only been silly since most tanks will have this talent, but also it would have simply made Expertise look even better. So, don’t think that by me using the assumption that you’ve got this talent that it gave Expertise an advantage because the opposite is actually the case.
Haven’t you shown that sometimes Expertise = Hit?

It’s true in the latter examples that Expertise will offer the same amount of Effective Hit that Hit Rating does, but what you also need to understand is that when that’s the case Expertise is reducing a bosses chance to Parry whereas Hit Rating is simply reducing your chance to Miss a boss. A Parried attack results in the bosses next attack coming faster than normal which is clearly a bad thing. Basically in the worst case scenario, Expertise gives you the exact same Threat/DPS benefit as Hit Rating and it gives you additional survivability too!
Blah, Blah! What are the caps!?

Dodge caps

123 Expertise Rating (15 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality + 5 Skill Racial (Orc/Dwarf) = 3.75% + 1.5% + 1.25%

140 Expertise Rating (17 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality + 3 Skill Racial (Human) = 4.25% + 1.5% + 0.75%

164 Expertise Rating (20 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality = 5% + 1.5%

214 Expertise Rating (26 skill)
= 6.5%

Parry caps

435 Expertise Rating (53 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality + 5 Skill Racial (Orc/Dwarf) = 13.25% + 1.5% + 1.25%

451 Expertise Rating (55 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality + 3 Skill Racial (Human) = 13.75% + 1.5% + 0.75%

476 Expertise Rating (58 skill)
+ 3/3 Vitality = 14.5% + 1.5%

525 Expertise Rating (64 skill)
= 16%

Hit Caps

230 Hit Rating
+ 1% Racial (Draenei) = 7% + 1%

263 Hit Rating
= 8%
What to take away from this

Expertise is always better than Hit Rating. So, whenever you have an option between the two you should always choose Expertise. In fact, Expertise is so much better than Hit that you should even consider taking Expertise over Hit when the amount of Expertise you’ll gain is a bit less. The best simple technique I can leave you with is when gemming your yellow sockets for Threat/DPS always choose Accurate Monarch Topaz over Rigid Autumn’s Glow.
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PsyWulf said:
One of my mates over with tankingtips reminded me of an old question regarding 1roll/2roll attacktables and after that I went and checked the numbers a bit which confirmed 1roll attacktables.

He coined the term "effective hit"

1% Expertise = 1%Hit for effective hit,however
1% Expertise also reduces chance to be parried/dodged so then effectively speaking Expertise is more valuable than hit point for point

So not only will your attacks land just as often when you reduce boss dodge/parry rather than stacking hit,but your chance of being parry-gibbed is lessened making expertise > hit

He had far more elegant calculations but thats the gist of it
Click to expand...

I am going to add my 2 cents...

Expertise = melee hit rating for tanks like warriors, dks and druids.

Paladins main threat generation comes from spell damage, thus hit rating is more important than expertise since it affects both, melee hit and spell hit.

As for bosses parrying me, no problems, I parry them back since I am an avoidance tank with 95% total avoidance (so far).

But then again, that just me, thats what makes sense to me and I have been wrong before (thats the time i thought i was wrong, but i was actually right:))

Edit: Since the expertise rating reduces the mobs chance to parry and swing faster at you, as a paladin, you dont need to swing at the mob (sure white damage with vengance does a little extra, but thats about 20% of ur total damage u can do). Very often on pulls I just spam spell abilities and keep my shield up. Saying that I am going to insist hit rating is better for a paladin than expertise.
 
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Timken said:
I am going to add my 2 cents...

Expertise = melee hit rating for tanks like warriors, dks and druids.

Paladins main threat generation comes from spell damage, thus hit rating is more important than expertise since it affects both, melee hit and spell hit.

As for bosses parrying me, no problems, I parry them back since I am an avoidance tank with 95% total avoidance (so far).

But then again, that just me, thats what makes sense to me and I have been wrong before (thats the time i thought i was wrong, but i was actually right:))
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paladin abilities ( judgements and their spellhit dmg ) were modified to use Melee hit and as Expertise falls in the same roll table it would usurp its efficiency
 
PsyWulf said:
paladin abilities ( judgements and their spellhit dmg ) were modified to use Melee hit and as Expertise falls in the same roll table it would usurp its efficiency
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If you could link this fact for me, I will humble apologise for my post misinforming the paladins.

Taken from the elitistjerks paladin guide

# Expertise will affect normal (white) melee attacks as well as Hammer of the Righteous (a parry is reported as "Deflect").
# Expertise will not affect Shield of Righteousness, Righteous Defense, Avenger's Shield, or Judgements, because these cannot be parried or deflected.
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Here is a link to their website
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-protection_paladin_field_manual_wow_3_0_wotlk/
 
I've seen the Notes,though this was a Wowforums post regarding 3.08 or 3.10 developments

Not that pallies have any issues as is,maintank of choice these days

*More specifically,judgements could be dodged but ofcourse not parried much like a warrior's Taunt,and parry gibbing still being a threat for Paladins aswell

So even though much of Pally threat isn't quite as sensitive to Dodge/parry mechanics they're certainly still susceptible to be squished
 
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Unfortunately for DK's and Paladins Expertise is not always better then Hit.
It's still very good and you should grab it but Hit is probably slightly more useful because we use spells that benefit from the hit.

I'll use the DK abilities as an example. IT, BB, DC, DND and a few other abilities of ours are all spells and essential abilities for a tank.
I'm almost Hit Capped now and I'm at about 34 Expertise Rating so there is no reason you can't work on both.
 
TheShogun said:
Unfortunately for DK's and Paladins Expertise is not always better then Hit.
It's still very good and you should grab it but Hit is probably slightly more useful because we use spells that benefit from the hit.

I'll use the DK abilities as an example. IT, BB, DC, DND and a few other abilities of ours are all spells and essential abilities for a tank.
I'm almost Hit Capped now and I'm at about 34 Expertise Rating so there is no reason you can't work on both.
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Ofcourse the expertise issue is more on avoidance and threat vs just static threat :P
 
PsyWulf said:
Ofcourse the expertise issue is more on avoidance and threat vs just static threat :P
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Avoidance?
The only way in which Hit/Expertise ups your avoidance as a DK is ensuring that Blood abilities never miss so your Blade Barrier is up quicker.
 
You didn't quite follow how parry works it seems,or DKs are immune to being parried ( which admittedly as I refuse to roll one is maybe possible )
 
on what servers do you guys play? Local or International? Thanks for letting me know :)
 
Niccia said:
on what servers do you guys play? Local or International? Thanks for letting me know :)
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Oh dear

Official only

I can't imagine private (sic Pirate) servers are beyond patch 2.3
 
Out of the top of my head, I do stand to be corrected....

When a mob parries you, his next swing is 150% of the normal swing speed.

Say in 3 swing mob parries twice, his increased attack speed will be like u getting clapped 4 times.

Hence by upping ur hit rating, u are excluding the boss from parrying u and eliminating the extra swing speed....thus adding 1 theoratical hit to a miss table, thus improving ur avoidance.

That is another reason why melee dps must always hit the mobs from behind, to exclude ur tank taking the 150% swing damages everytime the boss parries the dps. First being ofc that from behind the boss cant dodge or parry u etc.
 
Timken said:
Hence by upping ur [expertise] rating, u are excluding the boss from parrying u and eliminating the extra swing speed....thus adding 1 theoratical hit to a miss table, thus improving ur avoidance.
Click to expand...

First being ofc that from behind the boss cant parry u.
Click to expand...
-dodge (mobs can dodge from behind )


Corrected :)
 
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