LazyLion
King of de Jungle
agreed, seems like the whole commission has just stagnated into inactivity.
I blame the greedy lawyers representing the miners though. They would not go any further without more money.
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Marikana Shootings Farlam Commission Thread
agreed, seems like the whole commission has just stagnated into inactivity.
I blame the greedy lawyers representing the miners though. They would not go any further without more money.
How is it greed to expect remuneration for conducting your profession? This is how these guys make a living, what they studied. Would you do what you are expecting of them?
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
If it was that important to them, they should do it pro bono, or at a reduced rate. They are top lawyers, they could easily afford it. Cmon we both know this is not about them making a living. These guys are making millions out of this. Seriously I know you are not that naive.
They took the job knowing there will be pay. There are pro bono lawyers out there, let them volunteer to represent the miners.
daveza
Honorary Master
What's wrong with legal-aid lawyers ?
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Correction: They took the job hoping the tax payer would keep paying them, but there was no guarantee of that.
And their fees are outrageous, as most lawyers are.
Greed is the order of the day.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
ConCourt dismisses Marikana application
An application to compel the State to fund the legal costs of miners wounded in the Marikana shootings last year was dismissed by the Constitutional Court on Monday.
"The court has considered all arguments. The application has been dismissed," said Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng.
The legal costs relate to the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of 44 people during strike-related unrest at Lonmin Platinum's mining operations in Marikana, North West, last year.
Thirty four people -- almost all striking mine workers -- were killed on August 16 when police fired on them. Ten people, including 10 police officers, were killed in the preceding week.
Dali Mpofu, for the miners, told the commission in June that it could be the last time he represented the miners due to financial constraints.
He brought an urgent court application in the High Court in Pretoria several weeks ago, but this was dismissed.
Mpofu then went to the Constitutional Court in a bid to compel government to pay his legal team which is representing the miners.
Source : Sapa /gm/tk/jje/jk
Date : 19 Aug 2013 11:07
An application to compel the State to fund the legal costs of miners wounded in the Marikana shootings last year was dismissed by the Constitutional Court on Monday.
"The court has considered all arguments. The application has been dismissed," said Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng.
The legal costs relate to the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of 44 people during strike-related unrest at Lonmin Platinum's mining operations in Marikana, North West, last year.
Thirty four people -- almost all striking mine workers -- were killed on August 16 when police fired on them. Ten people, including 10 police officers, were killed in the preceding week.
Dali Mpofu, for the miners, told the commission in June that it could be the last time he represented the miners due to financial constraints.
He brought an urgent court application in the High Court in Pretoria several weeks ago, but this was dismissed.
Mpofu then went to the Constitutional Court in a bid to compel government to pay his legal team which is representing the miners.
Source : Sapa /gm/tk/jje/jk
Date : 19 Aug 2013 11:07
daveza
Honorary Master
Good.
Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for this nonsense.
Why should the taxpayer foot the bill for this nonsense.
McSack
Executive Member
I agree ... but then why do Mandela family plaintiffs get to access free legal aid on our tax bill in an argument over some old bones?
daveza
Honorary Master
This is a commission of enquiry, not a trial.
Why do the miners have lawyers ?
Why do the miners have lawyers ?
McSack
Executive Member
I guess a finding by the commission that the state had acted unlawfully would open the way for them to take punitive action. Considering all the legal contortions that are going to come up, it's not surprising they would want someone representing them who can talk the talk ( as it were )This is a commission of enquiry, not a trial.
Why do the miners have lawyers ?
... there's blood in the water so the sharks are circling
daveza
Honorary Master
What if the commission finds that the cops acted lawfully against unlawful strikers - then the state ( us, you and me ) would have paid lawyers for a bunch of criminals.
McSack
Executive Member
I agree with you 100% that it's a load of horseschidt. I don't blame the cops in the least for protecting themselves against a horde of savages charging at them with machete's, spears, knobkierries and god knows what else.
The only people IMO who are going to get anything out of this are the [-]sharks[/-] ... errmm ..lawyers .
The only individuals who should be allowed to be a part of the proceedings should be those directly involved and the judges who form part of the commission itself as far as I'm concerned. But , this could easily develop into a political schidtstorm with none of the parties getting any closure . And where you find situations with convoluted accusations and counter-accusations with little chance of an amiable solution ... there you will find a shoal of toothy lawyers circling
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
ConCourt Ruling an 'Insult' to workers: MSC
The dismissal of an application for the State to fund the legal costs of miners wounded and arrested in the Marikana shootings last year is an insult to workers, the Marikana Support Campaign said on Tuesday.
"This was a lost opportunity for the Constitutional Court to level the playing field and affirm the new human rights culture that society is committed to," spokesman Trevor Ngwane said in a statement.
"It is also an insult to the workers who died, and all other victims of police brutality."
Ngwane was responding to a ruling on Monday by the Constitutional Court in which an application to compel the State to fund the miners' legal costs was dismissed.
This came after the High Court in Pretoria also rejected their application several weeks ago.
The legal costs relate to representation at the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of 44 people during strike-related unrest at Lonmin Platinum's mining operations in Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West.
Thirty-four striking mineworkers were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
"The only option left is to boycott the commission and to take collective protest action to demand that the government pay the legal fees of the miners' representatives," Ngwane said.
Source : Sapa /gm/tk/jje/jk
Date : 20 Aug 2013 11:05
The dismissal of an application for the State to fund the legal costs of miners wounded and arrested in the Marikana shootings last year is an insult to workers, the Marikana Support Campaign said on Tuesday.
"This was a lost opportunity for the Constitutional Court to level the playing field and affirm the new human rights culture that society is committed to," spokesman Trevor Ngwane said in a statement.
"It is also an insult to the workers who died, and all other victims of police brutality."
Ngwane was responding to a ruling on Monday by the Constitutional Court in which an application to compel the State to fund the miners' legal costs was dismissed.
This came after the High Court in Pretoria also rejected their application several weeks ago.
The legal costs relate to representation at the Farlam Commission of Inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of 44 people during strike-related unrest at Lonmin Platinum's mining operations in Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West.
Thirty-four striking mineworkers were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
"The only option left is to boycott the commission and to take collective protest action to demand that the government pay the legal fees of the miners' representatives," Ngwane said.
Source : Sapa /gm/tk/jje/jk
Date : 20 Aug 2013 11:05
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Legal issues for injured and killed cop
Lawyers for a policeman who was wounded and another who was killed during the unrest in Marikana last year are no longer being funded, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
Louis Gumbi, for the family of slain police officer Sello Leepaku, and for Lieutenant ****umo Solomon Baloyi who was stabbed by striking mineworkers during the unrest, said the funding they had received had ceased in May.
The funding had come from trade union the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union.
Baloyi filed an urgent court application in the High Court in Pretoria several days ago in a bid to have the SA Police Service pay his legal costs.
National police commissioner Riah Phiyega opposed the application, saying Baloyi could use the services of the lawyers representing the police.
Baloyi rejected this, saying there was a conflict of interest between himself and the police's legal team.
He wanted police to fund any lawyer he chose to use.
The high court dismissed his application.
On Tuesday, Gumbi said he and his team would continue representing Baloyi and the Leepaku family, despite the lack of funds.
Meanwhile, the lawyers for miners who were arrested and wounded during the unrest were still waiting for a potential donor to decide whether to fund them.
The decision was expected to be made later on Tuesday.
On Monday the Constitutional Court rejected their application to have the State fund them. This came after the High Court in Pretoria also dismissed their application.
Dali Mpofu, for the miners, indicated they would return to the high court to contest its decision to dismiss the application.
On Tuesday, Gumbi continued his cross-examination of North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe.
Mpembe was present when Leepaku and another officer, Tsietsi Monene, were stabbed, hacked, and shot to death.
Baloyi was severely stabbed in the incident.
The commission, sitting in Centurion, is investigating the circumstances that led to the deaths of 44 people during the strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in the North West.
Thirty-four striking mine workers were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /nsm/jk/jje
Date : 20 Aug 2013 11:04
Lawyers for a policeman who was wounded and another who was killed during the unrest in Marikana last year are no longer being funded, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
Louis Gumbi, for the family of slain police officer Sello Leepaku, and for Lieutenant ****umo Solomon Baloyi who was stabbed by striking mineworkers during the unrest, said the funding they had received had ceased in May.
The funding had come from trade union the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union.
Baloyi filed an urgent court application in the High Court in Pretoria several days ago in a bid to have the SA Police Service pay his legal costs.
National police commissioner Riah Phiyega opposed the application, saying Baloyi could use the services of the lawyers representing the police.
Baloyi rejected this, saying there was a conflict of interest between himself and the police's legal team.
He wanted police to fund any lawyer he chose to use.
The high court dismissed his application.
On Tuesday, Gumbi said he and his team would continue representing Baloyi and the Leepaku family, despite the lack of funds.
Meanwhile, the lawyers for miners who were arrested and wounded during the unrest were still waiting for a potential donor to decide whether to fund them.
The decision was expected to be made later on Tuesday.
On Monday the Constitutional Court rejected their application to have the State fund them. This came after the High Court in Pretoria also dismissed their application.
Dali Mpofu, for the miners, indicated they would return to the high court to contest its decision to dismiss the application.
On Tuesday, Gumbi continued his cross-examination of North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe.
Mpembe was present when Leepaku and another officer, Tsietsi Monene, were stabbed, hacked, and shot to death.
Baloyi was severely stabbed in the incident.
The commission, sitting in Centurion, is investigating the circumstances that led to the deaths of 44 people during the strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in the North West.
Thirty-four striking mine workers were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /nsm/jk/jje
Date : 20 Aug 2013 11:04
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Mpembe did not think that Miners posed a threat
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe did not think striking mineworkers at Marikana posed a threat to him and other police officers when they confronted them on August 13, 2012, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
This was despite allegations that a group of mineworkers were responsible for the deaths of two security guards killed at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in the North West the previous day.
The guards were set alight in their vehicle.
"I did not know who the destabilisers were," said Mpembe, who was the overall commander of the police operation.
Mpembe and the officers confronted the armed miners near a railway line and requested that they leave their weapons.
The miners refused, saying they would disarm once they reached the hill where other miners had gathered.
Police escorted the miners to the hill but when an officer fired teargas in their direction, the miners turned on police.
Two police officers were killed and another was injured during the attack.
Louis Gumbi, for the family of slain officer Sello Leepaku, and for Lieutenant ****umo Solomon Baloyi who was stabbed, questioned why Mpembe had not done a threat analysis prior to confronting the miners.
"Before you approached the miners, you had the employer's [Lonmin] and the police's view on how miners had behaved previously... You had also seen video evidence," said Gumbi.
"You had enough information to know that you were not dealing with ordinary strikers but people who had rituals performed on them, and who had killed two security guards the day before," said Gumbi.
In earlier proceedings, it was revealed that a sangoma had performed rituals on some of the miners. The ritual made miners believe they were invincible.
Mpembe said: "It did not come to my attention that this was the same group [who could have killed the security guards]."
The commission, which is sitting in Pretoria, is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest in Marikana last year.
Thirty-four people -- almost all striking mineworkers -- were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and two security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /nsm/gm/jk/jje
Date : 20 Aug 2013 13:17
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe did not think striking mineworkers at Marikana posed a threat to him and other police officers when they confronted them on August 13, 2012, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
This was despite allegations that a group of mineworkers were responsible for the deaths of two security guards killed at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in the North West the previous day.
The guards were set alight in their vehicle.
"I did not know who the destabilisers were," said Mpembe, who was the overall commander of the police operation.
Mpembe and the officers confronted the armed miners near a railway line and requested that they leave their weapons.
The miners refused, saying they would disarm once they reached the hill where other miners had gathered.
Police escorted the miners to the hill but when an officer fired teargas in their direction, the miners turned on police.
Two police officers were killed and another was injured during the attack.
Louis Gumbi, for the family of slain officer Sello Leepaku, and for Lieutenant ****umo Solomon Baloyi who was stabbed, questioned why Mpembe had not done a threat analysis prior to confronting the miners.
"Before you approached the miners, you had the employer's [Lonmin] and the police's view on how miners had behaved previously... You had also seen video evidence," said Gumbi.
"You had enough information to know that you were not dealing with ordinary strikers but people who had rituals performed on them, and who had killed two security guards the day before," said Gumbi.
In earlier proceedings, it was revealed that a sangoma had performed rituals on some of the miners. The ritual made miners believe they were invincible.
Mpembe said: "It did not come to my attention that this was the same group [who could have killed the security guards]."
The commission, which is sitting in Pretoria, is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest in Marikana last year.
Thirty-four people -- almost all striking mineworkers -- were killed on August 16, 2012, when police fired on them while trying to disperse and disarm them. Ten people, including two police officers and two security guards, were killed in the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /nsm/gm/jk/jje
Date : 20 Aug 2013 13:17
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Police didn't know who Marikana protestors were, or where they were from
Police did not know who the Marikana protesters were or where they came from, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Monday.
"We did not know who they were or from which areas they came from specifically," said North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe.
Michelle Le Roux, for the SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC), asked Mpembe if the police had any intelligence as to who the protesters were.
The intelligence that the police had was lacking, she said.
Commission chairman retired judge Ian Farlam asked Mpembe whether platinum producer Lonmin could not help in identifying the protesters through photographs and video clips.
"At least those who were up front shown licking their assegais and slamming their weapons together; couldn't Lonmin identify them?" asked Farlam.
Mpembe said the police could not get help from Lonmin.
"When we contacted Lonmin, they told us they were afraid to tell us who the protesters were... they told us not to inquire further about that."
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West, in August last year.
Police shot dead 34 people, almost all striking mineworkers, on August 16, 2012, while trying to disperse and disarm them.
Ten people, including two police officers and two security guards, were killed the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /gm/hdw/ks/jje
Date : 26 Aug 2013 11:44
Police did not know who the Marikana protesters were or where they came from, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Monday.
"We did not know who they were or from which areas they came from specifically," said North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe.
Michelle Le Roux, for the SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC), asked Mpembe if the police had any intelligence as to who the protesters were.
The intelligence that the police had was lacking, she said.
Commission chairman retired judge Ian Farlam asked Mpembe whether platinum producer Lonmin could not help in identifying the protesters through photographs and video clips.
"At least those who were up front shown licking their assegais and slamming their weapons together; couldn't Lonmin identify them?" asked Farlam.
Mpembe said the police could not get help from Lonmin.
"When we contacted Lonmin, they told us they were afraid to tell us who the protesters were... they told us not to inquire further about that."
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West, in August last year.
Police shot dead 34 people, almost all striking mineworkers, on August 16, 2012, while trying to disperse and disarm them.
Ten people, including two police officers and two security guards, were killed the preceding week.
Source : Sapa /gm/hdw/ks/jje
Date : 26 Aug 2013 11:44
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
No adequate briefing on Marikana Plan
Police were not adequately briefed on how to deal with armed protesters during the strike-related unrest at Marikana last year, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
"The SA Human Rights Commission submits that the fact that more than 400 statements before this commission by members of the SA Police Service are silent on how to deal with the small, armed militant group demonstrates that there was not enough briefing about the plan," said Michelle le Roux, for the SAHRC.
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe testified that the plan was to disperse the 3000 protesters, isolate and disarm them, and carry out arrests.
Le Roux argued that none of the officers knew how they would deal with the group that stayed behind and would not disperse.
Vuyani Ngalwana, for the police, said Mpembe and Maj-Gen Charl Annandale, who headed the police tactical response team, had already testified before the commission about the plan.
"Annandale also dealt with this extensively, and he discussed detailed dispersal, disarming, and arrest tactics," Ngalwana said.
Mpembe said all section commanders were thoroughly briefed, and they in turn had briefed police officers under their command.
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West in August last year.
Source : Sapa /gm/fg/jk/jje
Date : 27 Aug 2013 11:28
Police were not adequately briefed on how to deal with armed protesters during the strike-related unrest at Marikana last year, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
"The SA Human Rights Commission submits that the fact that more than 400 statements before this commission by members of the SA Police Service are silent on how to deal with the small, armed militant group demonstrates that there was not enough briefing about the plan," said Michelle le Roux, for the SAHRC.
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe testified that the plan was to disperse the 3000 protesters, isolate and disarm them, and carry out arrests.
Le Roux argued that none of the officers knew how they would deal with the group that stayed behind and would not disperse.
Vuyani Ngalwana, for the police, said Mpembe and Maj-Gen Charl Annandale, who headed the police tactical response team, had already testified before the commission about the plan.
"Annandale also dealt with this extensively, and he discussed detailed dispersal, disarming, and arrest tactics," Ngalwana said.
Mpembe said all section commanders were thoroughly briefed, and they in turn had briefed police officers under their command.
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West in August last year.
Source : Sapa /gm/fg/jk/jje
Date : 27 Aug 2013 11:28
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
Teargas sparked attack at Marikana
Teargas fired by a police officer sparked an attack by miners that resulted in the deaths of two officers and three other people at Marikana last year, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe said a Warrant Officer Kuhn had fired teargas at protesting mine workers on August 13, 2012, but he was unaware who had instructed Kuhn to do so.
Michelle le Roux, for the SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC), asked Mpembe if he had informed provincial commissioner Zukisa Mbombo about the incident.
"I told the provincial commissioner, and that Kuhn himself could not say who he got the instruction from," he replied.
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West, in August last year.
Le Roux said it was surprising that Mbombo had not mentioned the teargas during a media briefing on August 16.
"The SAHRC will submit that during her media briefing, the provincial commissioner did not seem to take into account the use of the teargas on August 13.
"She said 'all of a sudden they [protesters] advanced towards the police and two officers and three members of the public were killed'," said Le Roux.
She asked Mpembe why Mbombo had not mentioned the teargas incident.
"There should have been notes made on that... but I do not know how that came about," he said.
Source : Sapa /gm/fg/jk/ks
Date : 27 Aug 2013 12:07
Teargas fired by a police officer sparked an attack by miners that resulted in the deaths of two officers and three other people at Marikana last year, the Farlam Commission of Inquiry heard on Tuesday.
North West deputy police commissioner William Mpembe said a Warrant Officer Kuhn had fired teargas at protesting mine workers on August 13, 2012, but he was unaware who had instructed Kuhn to do so.
Michelle le Roux, for the SA Human Rights Commission (SAHRC), asked Mpembe if he had informed provincial commissioner Zukisa Mbombo about the incident.
"I told the provincial commissioner, and that Kuhn himself could not say who he got the instruction from," he replied.
The commission is investigating the deaths of 44 people killed during strike-related unrest at Lonmin's platinum mining operations at Marikana, near Rustenburg in North West, in August last year.
Le Roux said it was surprising that Mbombo had not mentioned the teargas during a media briefing on August 16.
"The SAHRC will submit that during her media briefing, the provincial commissioner did not seem to take into account the use of the teargas on August 13.
"She said 'all of a sudden they [protesters] advanced towards the police and two officers and three members of the public were killed'," said Le Roux.
She asked Mpembe why Mbombo had not mentioned the teargas incident.
"There should have been notes made on that... but I do not know how that came about," he said.
Source : Sapa /gm/fg/jk/ks
Date : 27 Aug 2013 12:07
Compton_effect
Honorary Master
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