Martial Arts

[Picard]

One is never too young to get fit and keep fit

It's easier for a kid of 4 to get fit and stay fit than a kid of 10 or 11

You are not addressing my concern.

My concern isn't with keeping fit.

 

[Palimino]

What is the difference between the respective disciplines?

Very similar (although I don’t know much about Aikido). The pants of Aikido exponents are those huge bell-bottomed, black affairs which look silly. There is a good reason, however. Aikido (and Judo) involves throws and balance. A practiced opponent can deduce moves ahead of time by noting the position and orientation of an opponents feet. Those silly black pants conceal the feet from prying eyes (they must cover the feet). It’s a competition thing only.

 

[Cheri_N]

This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the info - you convinced me that it's a hell of a good idea letting him do it. Will follow up with the contacts given

 

[Palimino]

I want my son to start karate or something similar but I am finding it difficult to find a Martial Arts centre that can accommodate him after hours. Does anyone know of a Martial Artscentre in JHB that offer lessons to young children after hours and / or weekends? He is almost 4, is he too young to start? Pros & cons for those in the know?

And which Martial Arts Discipline would you recommend? Karate, Judo, Kung fu etc?

Lengthy addendum edited from other posts.

Background. This doesn’t relate to a 4 year old.
Speed and attitude is more important than technique IMO, although you should know some moves. A fight should not last more than 30 seconds (strikes). At some stage you can identify the inevitable. Don’t go through the full ritual of “push me, shove you” (attitude). Attack while surprise is on your side (speed). Unless you are looking for a fight or are unusually obnoxious, fights seldom happen as you envisage. You should develop several ‘patterns of attack’ which are a mix of several fighting styles (cannot be pigeonholed). It’s hard to defend against a co-ordinated (practise of attack patterns) lightning attack which targets shins, crotch, throat and eyes at the same time. Karate is a striking style. So is kick boxing. Ninjitsu, Aikido and Judo are grappling styles (superior IMO).

Some time ago they had a program on TV (American) where people (men usually, although there were some women) battled it out to win some ‘Best of’ type award. The promotional hype stressed the ‘anything goes’ (bar gouging out eyes etc.) nature of the fights. The viewer was presented with the fighter’s stats (kick boxer, wrestler, judo etc.). Without exception, the fights always ended in grappling. The fights would normally start with a strike attempt (usually a kick – longer reach) but because balance was severely compromised, they very quickly went into grappling. I always backed the grappler. They didn’t always win because there were other variables (endurance, strength etc.) but their technique was superior. They won more than they lost (all else being equal). This does not mean that grapplers are better. It just means that you must be confident of putting your opponent down early with a strike – and this is unlikely if they are expecting it. Defensive grapplers are at a disadvantage in programs of this sort. They must wait for an attack before they can strut their stuff. Grappling schools are usually defensive and the ethos here is offensive. Strikers have an advantage until the distance is closed. A grappler needs to find more effective ways to close the distance to limit the striker’s options.

For fighting.
Learn a few strikes and blocks and concentrate on grappling. Besides, judo, aikido or ju-jitsu (grappling styles) teach you to fall elegantly (a useful skill). The rugby players have had this fall training. Watch them if they fall forward with the ball and can get loose from a tackle. There is barely a pause in their forward momentum.

My mom (single parent) was a student of Professor Jack Robinson in the ‘50’s. He brought judo to South Africa. My mom was a fan and a reasonably hot-shot exponent. When, as an adolescent, I wanted to go to karate classes with my friend, my mom said that I would have to make all the arrangements. If I went to judo however, she would make the arrangements. I was a slack teenager so I ended-up training in judo.

Aside: This is why judo is so good for women. A rape attempt usually ends in grappling. Generally speaking, the bigger and heavier your opponent, the better it works (balance and leverage are primary components). It is mainly defensive (it is hard to attack in judo) and gives better control of violence to the exponent. A striking martial art (karate, etc.) gives less control – you can accidently kill with karate, you choose to kill with judo.

Another aside: have you thought of attending Judo classes with your son? Good anti-rape training.

**Generalising**
IMO most ‘striking’ (karate etc.) martial arts are inferior to grappling fighting. They are effective only when you can catch an opponent by surprise. The absolutely WORST thing you can do is to allow a passive martial artist to get hold of a limb – especially if they have perused an ‘acu-pressure’ book and know of pressure points not even dreamed of by regular martial artists. So if the karate exponent doesn’t put his opponent down with the first blow (extremely unlikely, if the opponent is expecting it), they’re toast.

There are medical books on acupressure, acupuncture etc. Get one (acupressure would be the best). It turns out that the majority of those points are also nerve clusters. In close contact with a rapist (for e.g.), this is useful knowledge. It is not practical to memorise a whole bunch of nerve clusters. Memorise 4 or 5 of the, easily found, major ones to work into your routine. E.g. the ‘funny bone’ nerve cluster is very effective but is a mission to find even under ideal conditions – let alone in panicked wrestling with a rapist. Note: **easily found on the body**. Test them on yourself. Have a general knowledge of the others – targets of opportunity.

Develop a number (4 or 5) of patterns of attack/defence. E.g. a pattern of attack (a routine) might comprise a **simultaneous** attack on several fronts (harder to counter). Really strenuous – a lengthy one shouldn’t last longer than 5 seconds. The eyes and scrotum are good targets but are instinctively defended (because they are good targets). Work into your routine strikes at shins (painful) and throat (crippling). Don’t run out of hands and feet. Keep your balance and be ready to run like hell, screaming like a banshee (rape/assault, etc.). Remember, there are few parts of a male body soft enough to be susceptible to crippling attack. Everything else is protected by bone and will hurt you more than him. The eyes and scrotum are instinctively defended. The abdomen may be sheathed in muscle and any wounds you can inflict here may not stop an attack. That leaves only the throat and it is a good option – reachable and a powerful blow by hand is crippling.

I am generally scathing about those ‘self-defence’ classes for women. However, a visit may prove useful. They (presumably) have experience and may have several useful moves – investigate. I am working on the assumption that you want a life and do not harbour ambitions to be a Rambo-ette. However, you should occasionally physically practise your moves (routine). Go through your moves in your head a lot (e.g. while driving) – what he may do, your counter etc. This is the next best simulation technique to physical practise.

Viva! Judo. Viva!

 

[Cheri_N]

Lengthy addendum edited from other posts.

Background. This doesn’t relate to a 4 year old.
Speed and attitude is more important than technique IMO, although you should know some moves. A fight should not last more than 30 seconds (strikes). At some stage you can identify the inevitable. Don’t go through the full ritual of “push me, shove you” (attitude). Attack while surprise is on your side (speed). Unless you are looking for a fight or are unusually obnoxious, fights seldom happen as you envisage. You should develop several ‘patterns of attack’ which are a mix of several fighting styles (cannot be pigeonholed). It’s hard to defend against a co-ordinated (practise of attack patterns) lightning attack which targets shins, crotch, throat and eyes at the same time. Karate is a striking style. So is kick boxing. Ninjitsu, Aikido and Judo are grappling styles (superior IMO).

Some time ago they had a program on TV (American) where people (men usually, although there were some women) battled it out to win some ‘Best of’ type award. The promotional hype stressed the ‘anything goes’ (bar gouging out eyes etc.) nature of the fights. The viewer was presented with the fighter’s stats (kick boxer, wrestler, judo etc.). Without exception, the fights always ended in grappling. The fights would normally start with a strike attempt (usually a kick – longer reach) but because balance was severely compromised, they very quickly went into grappling. I always backed the grappler. They didn’t always win because there were other variables (endurance, strength etc.) but their technique was superior. They won more than they lost (all else being equal). This does not mean that grapplers are better. It just means that you must be confident of putting your opponent down early with a strike – and this is unlikely if they are expecting it. Defensive grapplers are at a disadvantage in programs of this sort. They must wait for an attack before they can strut their stuff. Grappling schools are usually defensive and the ethos here is offensive. Strikers have an advantage until the distance is closed. A grappler needs to find more effective ways to close the distance to limit the striker’s options.

For fighting.
Learn a few strikes and blocks and concentrate on grappling. Besides, judo, aikido or ju-jitsu (grappling styles) teach you to fall elegantly (a useful skill). The rugby players have had this fall training. Watch them if they fall forward with the ball and can get loose from a tackle. There is barely a pause in their forward momentum.

My mom (single parent) was a student of Professor Jack Robinson in the ‘50’s. He brought judo to South Africa. My mom was a fan and a reasonably hot-shot exponent. When, as an adolescent, I wanted to go to karate classes with my friend, my mom said that I would have to make all the arrangements. If I went to judo however, she would make the arrangements. I was a slack teenager so I ended-up training in judo.





**Generalising**
IMO most ‘striking’ (karate etc.) martial arts are inferior to grappling fighting. They are effective only when you can catch an opponent by surprise. The absolutely WORST thing you can do is to allow a passive martial artist to get hold of a limb – especially if they have perused an ‘acu-pressure’ book and know of pressure points not even dreamed of by regular martial artists. So if the karate exponent doesn’t put his opponent down with the first blow (extremely unlikely, if the opponent is expecting it), they’re toast.

There are medical books on acupressure, acupuncture etc. Get one (acupressure would be the best). It turns out that the majority of those points are also nerve clusters. In close contact with a rapist (for e.g.), this is useful knowledge. It is not practical to memorise a whole bunch of nerve clusters. Memorise 4 or 5 of the, easily found, major ones to work into your routine. E.g. the ‘funny bone’ nerve cluster is very effective but is a mission to find even under ideal conditions – let alone in panicked wrestling with a rapist. Note: **easily found on the body**. Test them on yourself. Have a general knowledge of the others – targets of opportunity.

Develop a number (4 or 5) of patterns of attack/defence. E.g. a pattern of attack (a routine) might comprise a **simultaneous** attack on several fronts (harder to counter). Really strenuous – a lengthy one shouldn’t last longer than 5 seconds. The eyes and scrotum are good targets but are instinctively defended (because they are good targets). Work into your routine strikes at shins (painful) and throat (crippling). Don’t run out of hands and feet. Keep your balance and be ready to run like hell, screaming like a banshee (rape/assault, etc.). Remember, there are few parts of a male body soft enough to be susceptible to crippling attack. Everything else is protected by bone and will hurt you more than him. The eyes and scrotum are instinctively defended. The abdomen may be sheathed in muscle and any wounds you can inflict here may not stop an attack. That leaves only the throat and it is a good option – reachable and a powerful blow by hand is crippling.

I am generally scathing about those ‘self-defence’ classes for women. However, a visit may prove useful. They (presumably) have experience and may have several useful moves – investigate. I am working on the assumption that you want a life and do not harbour ambitions to be a Rambo-ette. However, you should occasionally physically practise your moves (routine). Go through your moves in your head a lot (e.g. while driving) – what he may do, your counter etc. This is the next best simulation technique to physical practise.

Viva! Judo. Viva!

Thanks for this Palimino. You have given me a lot of food for thought. I never considered doing karate with him but you have a couple of brilliant points. Even if I only do a months lessons with him, I think it will probably be a good idea to know the basics.

You sound very knowledgeable - are you still doing Judo? Does Judo also work with the different coloured belt system? I think they start off with a white belt with one stripe up until black with 4 stripes? (That takes years to achieve?).

I would like for him to learn how to defend himself but also how to cripple an attacker (not just defense). This is South-Africa, one should definitely not be an easy victim.

 

[noxibox]

Whether 4 is fine will depend on the child. You may also have to let your child try out a few different martial arts to find one they like. And one thing a good instructor/school will teach your child is not to fight, that fighting is something you do as a last resort, not to show off.

I was keen to do Judo as a child, I was the youngest by around 2 years in my class so each session turned into a bullying session (in my mind) as all the kids were much bigger than me.

That was not good for my self confidence.

That's a failure on the part of the instructor.

 

[Voicy]

4 is way too young. Why would you even consider it at his age?

Wait till he's about 10/11/12.

Even if he has a good instructor, having a superior fighting technique to any of his peers is just going to **** with his mind.

Err no dude. I started Judo at 4.

 

[Freeusnow]

I sent my boy to judo at 6 because, karakti being a contact sport and little boys being what little boys are, I was concerned he would want to show off at school and accidentally hurt other kids at school during break (a little knowledge is dangerous) , but I wanted him to be able to stand his own if he was bullied as he was small for his age plus I wanted to build up his self esteem. Judo - which was offered as an extramural at school - did all of the above. At about 19 he decided to take up taekwondo - kick boxing - to my horror - but he did very well at it and the judo that he learnt as a kid reinforced everything he learnt at taekwondo.

 

[Picard]

Err no dude. I started Judo at 4.

Yes, and just look how you turned out.

 

[Palimino]

Thanks for this Palimino. You have given me a lot of food for thought. I never considered doing karate with him but you have a couple of brilliant points. Even if I only do a months lessons with him, I think it will probably be a good idea to know the basics.

You sound very knowledgeable - are you still doing Judo? Does Judo also work with the different coloured belt system? I think they start off with a white belt with one stripe up until black with 4 stripes? (That takes years to achieve?).

I would like for him to learn how to defend himself but also how to cripple an attacker (not just defense). This is South-Africa, one should definitely not be an easy victim.

Focusing on you:

It’s not karate, it’s **JUDO**. It will be depressing if the principle of his school calls you in and tells you that your son has killed or blinded a classmate in a schoolyard scuffle. You can graduate your violence with judo. You strike full-out with karate. There are no other uses except fighting. Karate is intended to kill or cripple your attacker. Full stop. Schoolboy spats involve grappling. Judo will give him an edge.

#1 You should consider judo as well as you will bond better with your son – you have areas of common interest and you can discourse knowledgeably. You can monitor his progress yourself without relying on a stranger’s opinion.

#2 Anti-rape/assault measure.

#3 Cut-down on gym time. It is good aerobic exercise, will keep you limber and inculcate poise and balance (a top-class ballerina and judo exponent move in the same way).

Freeusnow

At about 19 he decided to take up taekwondo - kick boxing - to my horror - but he did very well at it and the judo that he learnt as a kid reinforced everything he learnt at taekwondo.

This is true. In later life, judo training (even non-violent) will stand you in good stead.

Yes, it works with the different coloured belt system. They take longer to get, however. Not because it is necessarily more difficult (I wouldn’t know) but because judo is not obsessed with grading. Don’t take it too seriously, especially at the lower end. I doubt whether there is anyone in SA who has the super-duper black belt you mention. My instructors (as a child) were two special forces types from WW2 and they only had a normal black belt but were deadly (and they had used their training practically, I presume).

Investigate the options for yourself.

 

[Nanfeishen]

**Generalising**
IMO most ‘striking’ (karate etc.) martial arts are inferior to grappling fighting.

In some instances yes, I would agree with you ,(the drunk in the bar, or the playground bully) however, in reality one is hardly ever faced with only one opponent, there are normally 2 or more, and you dont want to get locked into a grappling situation trying to fend off 2 or more people.

I would like for him to learn how to defend himself but also how to cripple an attacker (not just defense). This is South-Africa, one should definitely not be an easy victim.

i couldnt agree with you more, it is important to foster the "dont be an easy victim" idea.
Everything nowadays is focused towards political correctness, non violence, and discussion and debate issues of contention, that we have fostered a generation of youngsters who too easily become victims of violence because we (the old generation) dont or havent educated them to deal with violence.

 

[Palimino]

In some instances yes, I would agree with you ,(the drunk in the bar, or the playground bully) however, in reality one is hardly ever faced with only one opponent, there are normally 2 or more, and you dont want to get locked into a grappling situation trying to fend off 2 or more people.

You have a point. As in so many things in life, it is a matter of priorities. Do you:

#1 Forgo all semblance of a normal life and train assiduously in a discipline (which only has one use) so that you are lethal at 15 paces on the off chance that, at some point in your life, you meet a group of people who don’t flee at the first sign of resistance?

#2 Train in a discipline (judo) which has a skill set applicable in different walks of life? Which has the advantage of useful exercise? Where violence can be graduated from schoolyard scuffles to life & death encounters? Where learning a few strikes (about 5) will be more than sufficient (99% of the time) to deal with multiple adversaries? Etc.

I would go with option #2.

 

[Nanfeishen]

You have a point. As in so many things in life, it is a matter of priorities. Do you:

#1 Forgo all semblance of a normal life and train assiduously in a discipline (which only has one use) so that you are lethal at 15 paces on the off chance that, at some point in your life, you meet a group of people who don’t flee at the first sign of resistance?

#2 Train in a discipline (judo) which has a skill set applicable in different walks of life? Which has the advantage of useful exercise? Where violence can be graduated from schoolyard scuffles to life & death encounters? Where learning a few strikes (about 5) will be more than sufficient (99% of the time) to deal with multiple adversaries? Etc.

I would go with option #2.

Option 3 from personal experience :
20 years training all in all (so far) - 12 years Wing Chun and 7 star Mantis Kung Fu (option 1) both stopped and have only focused on Taiji (option 2 ) since.
So while i maintain my health, flexibilty and strength, through my Taiji, i continue to utilse my knowedge of the Kung Fu for the practical application of my Taiji techniques.
Fortunately i found a very good teacher, who trained us bare-knuckle and padless on the practical applications, yet also offered us his knowledge, life skills, and philosophy that personally was my life line off a very dark road.
As a teacher and practitioner of the Arts, i never knock a system, ( although there are teachers that raise my eyebrows sometimes) they all have strengths and weaknesses, it is the practitoner that gives merit to the art.

 

[Pitbull]

You are not addressing my concern.

My concern isn't with keeping fit.

Fit = No or less injuries.

An unfit person is more prone to injury than a fit person. No way a kid will get hurt or mamed doing martial arts, no matter the age.

 

[syntax]

Fit = No or less injuries.

An unfit person is more prone to injury than a fit person. No way a kid will get hurt or mamed doing martial arts, no matter the age.

less likely perhaps, but its definitely possible... ...as for the fitness, i agree completely...
The worst thing you can do is try push yourself to the limit when you are not fit, a body part is almost guaranteed to give way

 

[Jonny Two Shoes]

I was always of the opinion that a very effective fighter would never allow a fight to go to ground. For instance - might sound silly but - would you ever imagine Bruce Lee grappling? And I certainly wouldn't want to try approach and grapple someone who is lightning fast and accurate and who is hell bent on killing me if I got near.

But admittedly I could be wrong, I mean most UFC fights go to ground and people all over reckon those guys know what they are doing so I dunno :/ I often see a replay of a grapple attempt in slow mo where a serious knee to the person charging in is possible but the opportunity hardly ever seen by the defender.

To the OP - Two major forms exist as far as I know. Chinese and Japanese martial arts. Karate and Judo is Japanase. Japanese Karate afaik is mainly straight lines and lots of striking and hardening of the body. Chinese afaik tend to believe more in circular motion in their techniques. Then of course there are lots of other forms of MA like Jiu Jitsu and Capoeira and Kick Boxing etc...

The Japanese is where the belts come from - brown belt, black belt etc...

My ideal form of MA I would like to do personally is Aikido - a very passive aggressive style and as mentioned earlier uses an opponents energy and motion against them. Steven Segal does aikido when I am finished exams I am going for Aikido if there is anything nearby.

However I believe anything Shaolin is the most dangerous to be faced against. For a kid I don't think it would be suitable.

 

[Jonny Two Shoes]

See if this one is near you http://www.zaiten.com/ZaitenDirections.aspx but I don't know if any good as I have never been there. Also don't know if they have anything for young children.

 

[Cheri_N]

See if this one is near you http://www.zaiten.com/ZaitenDirections.aspx but I don't know if any good as I have never been there. Also don't know if they have anything for young children.

Thanks. That is quite close to where I stay. Will give them a call

 

[noxibox]

I sent my boy to judo at 6 because, karakti being a contact sport and little boys being what little boys are, I was concerned he would want to show off at school and accidentally hurt other kids at school during break (a little knowledge is dangerous) , but I wanted him to be able to stand his own if he was bullied as he was small for his age

And what if he decides to show off his judo? Fact is a reputable karate instructor will train the child to avoid fighting if at all possible. A smaller child can at least as easily stand his own from another martial art. If the child wants to do judo that's fine, but there is no point in foisting judo on them if something else suits them better.

It will be depressing if the principle of his school calls you in and tells you that your son has killed or blinded a classmate in a schoolyard scuffle.

Like if for instance he got involved in an argument at the top of some stairs and decided to throw his opponent? Or accidentally cracks open another child's skull when he throws him down on the playground?

You strike full-out with karate.

Nonsense.

This is true. In later life, judo training (even non-violent) will stand you in good stead.

So will any number of other martial arts.

Investigate the options for yourself.

Quite right.

My ideal form of MA I would like to do personally is Aikido - a very passive aggressive style and as mentioned earlier uses an opponents energy and motion against them. Steven Segal does aikido when I am finished exams I am going for Aikido if there is anything nearby.

Aikido is good, but even if Steven Segal really does it that is hardly a positive endorsement.

However I believe anything Shaolin is the most dangerous to be faced against.

There are many different ones. We typically call them kung fu.

 

[Freeusnow]

@ noxibox Well, in my case, it certainly made me feel better.