Meat for smoking

[Ancalagon]

If you use a foil tray or metal dish on the grill (next to your meat) filled with boiling water you can improvise a kind of water smoker in your Weber. The water will help keep your food moist and will also keep the cooking temperature a little cooler. You will probably have to top up the water every 40 minutes or so.

Yeah, I will put a foil tray with some water in it. Lots of sites recommend that. Not boiling though.

 

[DJ...]

If you use a foil tray or metal dish on the grill (next to your meat) filled with boiling water you can improvise a kind of water smoker in your Weber. The water will help keep your food moist and will also keep the cooking temperature a little cooler. You will probably have to top up the water every 40 minutes or so.

Water does not help to keep food moist - that's an old wive's tale. It might keep the outside of a piece of meat moist but that's it, unless there is some sort of osmotic reaction going on here and there's a salt base in the liquid that somehow manages to permeate immediately? The only role I can see water playing is an even distribution of smoke and perhaps assisting to keep the temperature below 100C.

Meat loses moisture based on pressure, protein contraction, osmotic reactions, evaporation etc all caused by heat, temperature differentials and chemistry. Steam, although a lower heat than dry oven heat, is still heat and will not do anything in terms of moisture absorption for meat. This is an old wive's tale that is nonsense. You can test it yourself. Go steam a piece of meat for 12 hours. Old wive's tale logic dictates that it should be juicy as hell. Reality is that it'll be as dry as shoe.

To be honest, I don't see the point of the water. The smoke will have a tendency to attach itself to water molecules due to a process called thermophoresis, but really, what's the point? So now you have smoky water attaching itself to the meat instead of it binding to the protein molecules. It might actually make the smoking process less efficient.

Or, through a mechanism I haven't thought of, make it more efficient. I just can't see how...

 

[InvisibleJim]

Water does not help to keep food moist - that's an old wive's tale.

I've used charcoal vertical water smokers like this a few times in the past and I believe they work. It might be partly to do with the low and slowish temperature as well as the steam. Food comes out moist and with a strong smoky flavour. In fact we took to doing small hams for 3 hours or so in the smoker and then finishing off in a normal oven because they get quite rich if you smoke them all the way to done (tasty though!)

 

[DJ...]

I've used charcoal vertical water smokers like this a few times in the past and I believe they work. It might be partly to do with the low and slowish temperature as well as the steam. Food comes out moist and with a strong smoky flavour. In fact we took to doing small hams for 3 hours or so in the smoker and then finishing off in a normal oven because they get quite rich if you smoke them all the way to done (tasty though!)

The lower temperature will be the most important bit there. Low and slow always works...

 

[Ancalagon]

My guess would be that water (but not boiling water) helps in two ways:

1. By absorbing heat from the fire that would otherwise heat up the meat, thus keeping temperatures down. Plus wouldnt evaporating water remove heat from the system?
2. By increasing the relative humidity inside the smoking environment, thus making water less likely to evaporate from the meat.

I mean, yes steaming meat for 12 hours will dry it out, but my guess would be, roasting it for 12 hours would dry it out even more so.

 

[DJ...]

2. By increasing the relative humidity inside the smoking environment, thus making water less likely to evaporate from the meat.

I highly doubt it. 12 hours wouldn't be enough for an equilibrium to start making a difference, and hygroscopic actions wouldn't influence meat sugars either. I really believe it is simply a helping aid to keeping a constant temperature and keeping the temperature low. Meat for example only needs to cook at 60C for 12 hours. Doneness is all about temperature, not time, so even steam at 90Cish would be too high for 12 hours if you want a pink piece of beef for example. However because of the surface area of water molecules they will drop in temperature quite quickly so you'll need the meat to be a little bit of a distance away from the water. I haven't smoked with water before - never seen the need to, to be honest, so I can't comment on how to set this all up. To be honest I'd go for the dry smoke first.

I mean, yes steaming meat for 12 hours will dry it out, but my guess would be, roasting it for 12 hours would dry it out even more so.

If they're cooked at the same temperature and for 12 hours, then there is absolutely no reason why the steam method would retain more moisture, as there is no mechanism for the steam to add moisture to the meat. The dry roasting method will be equally effective. Cooking with moisture does not mean that meats will retain juices. Like I said, that's an old wive's tale. As the proteins contract, the pressure pushes the moisture out of the meat fibres, no matter what method you used to cook with, and this process begins just shortly after 50C depending on ambient pressure. Pressure cooking is another issue altogether but is not related to what we're discussing here. Under normal pressure, both methods are dependent on temperature, not how much liquids it is cooked with...

 

[Ancalagon]

Thanks for the info.

I'll give it a shot this weekend - beef brisket would be my first choice, probably followed by pork belly. I'll take photos and let you guys know how it goes.

EDIT: I'll be doing the water method as recommended by people who have tried it before. Maybe when I am a little more experienced, I will try it out without the water. Of course, the problem is, if water truly makes a big difference, I could be wasting a lot of meat.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I should have maybe said hot water rather than boiling. This was as per the instructions for the water smokers that I used. I think the idea was to lessen the effect on temperature compared to suddenly introducing a couple litres of cold water to the system.

 

[DJ...]

Just remember that it's all about temperature, and consistent temperature. For beef, your best bet is trying to smoke at around 70C for 12 hours and to ensure that you don't have massive temperature differentials, until the end, where you crank up the temperature to brown the meat. Alternatively brown the meat beforehand. You really want to induce the Maillard reaction which is an amino acid/sugar reaction that creates the meaty flavours we love in browned meat. (think grey mince flavour vs steak). It's best to induce this reaction at the beginning in an incredibly hot (smoking) pan so that during the 12 hour cooking process, the flavour reaction continues through the meat. If you do this afterwards, there is no time for this chemical reaction to penetrate the meat. Additionally, it helps to release enzymes that tenderise meat.

Another important thing is to remove whatever packaging the meat came in 24 hours before cooking, put it on a rack in the fridge, and leave it for at least 24 hours. 48 hours is best. This intensifies the meaty flavours and also results in an enzyme response in the meat to tenderise it and create incredibly rich flavour profiles in the meat. Salting an hour before cooking will also draw protein-rich liquids to the surface of the meat. Contrary to popular misconception, it won't try out your meat. In fact this works incredibly well for steaks too, and in fact ensures that they hold additional moisture. Salting meat a few hours before using it will in fact make it juicier. Strange but true fact...

 

[InvisibleJim]

If they're cooked at the same temperature and for 12 hours, then there is absolutely no reason why the steam method would retain more moisture, as there is no mechanism for the steam to add moisture to the meat. The dry roasting method will be equally effective. Cooking with moisture does not mean that meats will retain juices.

I may have to concede the point to you here that temperature is more the key. I have roasted a wing rib of beef for 18 hours or so at 50C and it came out beautifully moist and falling off the bone.

I would still recommend the water smoker as something to try if you get the chance.

 

[DJ...]

Thanks for the info.

I'll give it a shot this weekend - beef brisket would be my first choice, probably followed by pork belly. I'll take photos and let you guys know how it goes.

EDIT: I'll be doing the water method as recommended by people who have tried it before. Maybe when I am a little more experienced, I will try it out without the water. Of course, the problem is, if water truly makes a big difference, I could be wasting a lot of meat.

People recommend water out of ignorance in my experience. That rings true for most suggestions to "cook in water" or "rather steam it" when talking about keeping in moisture. There is absolutely no way that the steam will keep anything moist. People cooking at well over 100C will find water useful as it brings the temperature down, but if you control your temperature, you have no need for it. Smoke in itself contains moisture (oddly enough), I just can't see the benefit of combining steaming and smoking at the same time, unless the meat is insanely fatty and you only have 3 hours to cook it, in which case steam is a more efficient collagen to gelatin converter than dry heat. But if you're cooking for 12 hours then the water is just going to be a hindrance, as you're going to have to replace it over and over and over, which will involve opening the lid and allowing the heat to escape. You then have a massive temperature change and have to go through the process of reheating it with a massive piece of meat inside. The laws of thermodynamics take over and it will take quite some time.

There is nothing wrong with a dry smoke, on condition that you control your temperature...

 

[DJ...]

I may have to concede the point to you here that temperature is more the key. I have roasted a wing rib of beef for 18 hours or so at 50C and it came out beautifully moist and falling off the bone.

I would still recommend the water smoker as something to try if you get the chance.

I've given this some thought and the only thing it will do is slow the uptake of smoke flavour, which might not be a bad thing if you're smoking for 12 hours, but that's dependent on the situation. Smoke flavonoids are soluble in water, so once the smoke and water attach, you'd need an osmotic reaction between the meat and the liquid particle to release the flavour into the meat. Alternatively rely on the particles that haven't mixed with the water to penetrate and attach themselves to the meat.

It will provide for a gentler smoke flavour at the end of the day, but not a gentler cook. It will induce large temperature differentials which is dangerous under normal circumstances, but luckily smoke is a natural preservative and bacterial killer...

 

[InvisibleJim]

I should clarify. The Wing rib, I did in the oven, not the smoker with no added water. I also kicked it off with a blowtorch to induce that Maillard Reaction you were talking about.

 

[DJ...]

I should clarify. The Wing rib, I did in the oven, not the smoker with no added water. I also kicked it off with a blowtorch to induce that Maillard Reaction you were talking about.

I'm sure it was delicious. Just be careful about the blowtorch method - the paraffin/lighter fluid flavour can make its way into raw meats easily, and when the enzyme reaction takes place can carry those flavours into the meat. Oddly enough those smaller blowtorches are the culprits here as they're just not hot enough so you have to get them close to the meat for extended periods of time.

The large blowtorches are perfect as the gas flavour has usually evaporated by the time the flame hits the meat, and the furthest tip of the flame is the hottest...

 

[InvisibleJim]

I'm sure it was delicious. Just be careful about the blowtorch method - the paraffin/lighter fluid flavour can make its way into raw meats easily, and when the enzyme reaction takes place can carry those flavours into the meat. Oddly enough those smaller blowtorches are the culprits here as they're just not hot enough so you have to get them close to the meat for extended periods of time.

The large blowtorches are perfect as the gas flavour has usually evaporated by the time the flame hits the meat, and the furthest tip of the flame is the hottest...

Luckily I used a proper Man blowtorch. Didn't know that about the smaller ones

 

[DJ...]

Luckily I used a proper Man blowtorch. Didn't know that about the smaller ones

They're kitchen blowtorches for women with dainty nails and sensibilities and men who prefer to watch the kardashians than the rugby...

 

[Ancalagon]

So, I did smoke a beef roast and a pork shoulder like I said I would.

I did the beef on the Friday, it was a 1KG aitchbone roast, which I smoked for about 3 hours. I didnt really like it, it was too much tough. I couldnt find any brisket, so I thought aitchbone would be okay, but I dont think it has enough fat and connective tissue. I also dont think beef really works that well with the smoke flavour.

The pork shoulder went on the weber at about 10 in the morning, with a rub on it with included sugar, salt, paprika and some other spices. I smoked it at a low heat until about 6 in the evening, then I let the meat rest for about 30 minutes or so. It was brilliant! Very tender, although not quite falling off the bone tender, and the flavour was incredible. I'll definitely do this again, although next time I'll start even earlier. The method I used worked well, and it didnt burn. The outside of the meat wasnt really charred, but I think the sugar burned. Still good though. Next time I might try a rub/glaze as it gets closer to being cooked. I know American cooks use what is called a mop - a very liquid sauce used for basting, often including apple cider vinegar and water.

I have a question for DJ though. I bought a pressure cooker recently, and it has a trivet that I can use for steaming. What would happen if I were to steam a pork shoulder for say an hour, and then put it on the weber for say 4 hours?

Also does anyone know of a store that I can walk into and buy a meat thermometer?

 

[RanzB]

So, I did smoke a beef roast and a pork shoulder like I said I would.

I did the beef on the Friday, it was a 1KG aitchbone roast, which I smoked for about 3 hours. I didnt really like it, it was too much tough. I couldnt find any brisket, so I thought aitchbone would be okay, but I dont think it has enough fat and connective tissue. I also dont think beef really works that well with the smoke flavour.

How big was this piece of meat and at what temperature did you smoke it? My guess is that you either kept it at a too high temperature, or that 3 hours was waaaay too short, or a combination of the two.

As DJ said, low and slow.

 

[RanzB]

Also does anyone know of a store that I can walk into and buy a meat thermometer?

Get a thermapen.

 

[Ancalagon]

Beef brisket - about 1.1 Kgs, for 3 hours. Pork shoulder - 3kgs.

EDIT: Dont know the temperature, all I know is that it was similar to the temperature used for the pork shoulder, which worked great. It wasnt dry, just tough. Imagine a roast beef that you cooked fully in the oven - like that. Also, the problem was that the cut of meat had two different grains in it, which I didnt know until I cut it. The parts that were sliced against the grain were... okay, but the parts that were sliced with the grain were tough. I suppose I should have separated it into two pieces and just sliced each piece individually, that would allow me to slice against the grain.

I just think the pork shoulder had a better flavour than the beef, even not counting the toughness.