Johnatan56
Honorary Master
You're assuming that the exams are not moderated at all based on that statement.
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Med students take on Wits
- Thread starter Nom Chompsky
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You're assuming moderation is perfect. You've never encountered a situation where the so many people in a class fail the marks are adjusted upwards to account for the unfair difficulty?
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
Did you just write that the marks are adjusted upwards if moderation failed? Does that mean that you could still use the Cohen method? Understand what I'm trying to hint at?
No I asked if you've ever encountered such a situation. The marks aren't always adjusted upwards. Some lecturers have no qualms failing 80% of the class.
The Cohen method makes such a situation even worse if there is a genius in the class as per my scenario.
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
I've encountered it, yes, I've studied longer than you have if you only have a Bsc. Has happened 2/(starts counting subjects, 2-4 exams per subject) ~90 exams, where we got a 5% up shift, and you need to take into account I was the first of the new curriculum.
konfab
Honorary Master
In the faculties that have high entrance requirements, sure.
On the other hand they also tend to attract the dumbest people imaginable.
Then you see how disadvantageous this method is.
They should either take more people into account and curve the grades or not do anything at all.
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
If the mark is set at 60% of average, for us it would probably have dragged it to below 50% for a lot of the stuff, so I see no issue with it.
Again, your "genius" will be offset by the bulk of the class.
If adjusted after external moderation, I don't really see an issue.
HelterSkelter
Expert Member
Decolonise and go for Sangoma training.
KleinBoontjie
Honorary Master
I don't want anybody, operating on me, that has any kind of challenge behind him/her. Especially mental or intellectual challenges.
/facepalm
No they wouldn't. Do you even know how the the method works?
It's 60% of the mark of the 95th percentile student only. Everybody else is ignored.
The majority of your class would have failed.
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
Yes, last year quite a few subjects the 95th percentile was scoring in the 60s, we had 1 70 for a subject.
That would mean the pass mark would be 42%, lower than the 50% it was.
The majority of my class did fail, and I don't have an issue with it.
It would be very, very rare for the top 5% to all score 100%, then there is something wrong with that exam. It should be damn difficult to hit over 75%.
In my diploma year, there was only one person who had an average of 76% across all three years, not a single other person made that. If they had set the pass mark at 60% of the 95th percentile, I think the pass rate would have increased.
Stats for my course were: 1/7 pass in 3 years, 2/7 pass within 5, rest fail. Our year was even worse than normal as new curriculum and student protests at the time.
I'd expect medicine to be at least that difficult.
LOL can you imagine the peer pressure on the class genius to perhaps not score quite so well on every exam....
LOL can you imagine the peer pressure on the class genius to perhaps not score quite so well on every exam....
Probably get death threats the week prior to exams
Sounds like a class full of dumbasses and no geniuses. Only one person averaged 76% across all three years?
I can see how you wouldn't have a problem with this method if that was your experience.
So it is fine if a lecturer sets an exam that requires 10 hours to complete, but only 3 hours are allowed so that even the best students are lucky if they finish a third of the paper?
Yes, that actually happened for one course I took.
Raised requirements for those who had the lowest quality schooling doesn't make any sense. Yes, they lack the background and so need to do more to catch up at university, but what they're looking for are those that achieved well for the conditions under which they did their schooling. What makes sense is an entrance test that picks up ability rather than specific knowledge, having support in place to help them catch up and making it very clear to them that they're going to have to do extra work if they want to make it. Otherwise you're just cutting out people with potential who have been undermined by the background.
What is wrong is determining disadvantage based on skin colour. That creates the perverse situation that a child that is attending the same school as my child and living in the same type of neighbourhood has an easier time getting into university purely based on not being white.
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
You need to take the course as well before making such a comment. It's very strange if a course has many students with an average above 75%. I thought you did a Bsc? Was it a BA instead?
Count how many degrees with distinction: http://www.students.uct.ac.za/sites...graduation/2018/2018-04-04_1500_Science_1.pdf
I'm not talking individual subjects, I am talking throughout the entire degree. 17 out of 3 pages, near the 400 mark of students in the normal Bsc. 1:23 is about the same as our degree had.
Ending a degree with a distinction is insanely difficult, and those who get it are definitely a cut above the rest. And most of those will have averaged between 75 and 80%, 95th percentile means that the person had <75% average or about that, means the pass rate for a Bsc would have been 45% instead of the current 50% if we are judging it like that.
1st year marks are generally higher though, so assume that would make it hover around 50% instead. And remember, I am basing this on the people that passed, half will have failed, so they will drag that 95th percentile down.
What course did you do?
Where do you get 17 from?
~70 people got BScs with distinction and ~50 BSc (honours) with 1st class in that pdf. Those are not individual subjects either but their majors.
That shouldn't happen; two wrongs don't make a right. In the case that you mention, there was clearly a failing of internal or external moderation. The moderator or external examiner should have approved the paper beforehand, at which stage they should have raised the alarm bells that the paper is unreasonably long or difficult. The solution is not to set bad papers and simply adjust the marks afterwards.