Media player battle

[km2]

No. The wrapper is QT (QuickTime) MOV and the codec is H.264.
MP4 would imply DivX or xViD as the codec, as iPhones only process H.264 AVC compressed video and not DivX/xViD encoded video streams.

Eh? MP4 doesn't imply DivX or Xvid, where do you get that from? When people are dealing with DivX/Xvid surely they use the more common AVI/OGM/MKV containers?

MP4 is a MOV-like wrapper around whatever codec, but I'd say there's far more H.264 than Xvid named MP4.

 

[PeterCH]

Eh? MP4 doesn't imply DivX or Xvid, where do you get that from? When people are dealing with DivX/Xvid surely they use the more common AVI/OGM/MKV containers?

MP4 is a MOV-like wrapper around whatever codec, but I'd say there's far more H.264 than Xvid named MP4.

MPEG-4 is still a developing standard and is divided into a number of parts. Companies promoting MPEG-4 compatibility do not always clearly state which "part" level compatibility they are referring to. The key parts to be aware of are MPEG-4 part 2 (including Advanced Simple Profile, used by codecs such as DivX, Xvid, Nero Digital and 3ivx and by Quicktime 6) and MPEG-4 part 10 (MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 or Advanced Video Coding, used by the x264 codec, by Nero Digital AVC, by Quicktime 7, and by next-gen video medium formats like HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc).

From Wiki. Traditionally, MP4 part 2 came out long before H.264/AVC (part 10). Early processors were simply not fast enough to decode H.264/AVC streams in real time but they could easily handle DivX/XViD from Pentium II/II and up. We're on which version of DivX - 8 or 9? H.264 only took off around the time of the first video iPod with dedicated hardware decoder support.

Technically MP4 can be anything but even the referrence to "MPEG4- Generic" applies to simple profile xViD encodes as I painfully figured out after wanting to encode video for my cell phone which handles MP4 playback. In fact it only plays back MPEG4-Generic (according to G-Spot) and that format is Simple Profile XviD without any GMC or other optimisations - hence SP L0. (Level 1 suggests optimisations).

 

[km2]

Technically MP4 can be anything but even the referrence to "MPEG4- Generic" applies to simple profile xViD encodes as I painfully figured out after wanting to encode video for my cell phone which handles MP4 playback. In fact it only plays back MPEG4-Generic (according to G-Spot) and that format is Simple Profile XviD without any GMC or other optimisations - hence SP L0. (Level 1 suggests optimisations).

Yeah, look I don't think this is going to end conclusively. I've never heard the term "MP4" commonly used before AVC, it was always just a DivX or Xvid. And I don't think I've really seen that many standalone players which defaulted to using Xvid or DivX and used that .MP4 container as a base. With phones that worked on Simple Profile, the ones I saw normally called it .3GP.

I guess it's just that my main experiences with MP4 are based on the PSP and the iPhone, both of which only work with AVC.

 

[PeterCH]

Yeah, look I don't think this is going to end conclusively. I've never heard the term "MP4" commonly used before AVC, it was always just a DivX or Xvid. And I don't think I've really seen that many standalone players which defaulted to using Xvid or DivX and used that .MP4 container as a base. With phones that worked on Simple Profile, the ones I saw normally called it .3GP.

I guess it's just that my main experiences with MP4 are based on the PSP and the iPhone, both of which only work with AVC.

You are correct that MP4 can be both part 2 (old xvid, divx...) and newer part 10 (avc/h.264). But my traditional experience is that MP4 files contained only xvid/divx in the beginning and were just an alternative but newer (more functional) container to AVI.
AVI is very outdated and lacks features - such as chapter markers. MKV is a newer container and while you can lob divx media into it, most MKVs people encode nowadays are in H.264/AVC. Maybe it's just the progression of technology.

You're right that 3GP is also such but files for many cell phones are encoded as "MP4" - in fact the Sharp range of phones plays back MP4 and records according to their specs sheet and the only format they play back is MPEG4-Generic L0 S1 (when you use an applet like G-Spot to identify the playable files). To create such files I had to use xViD as my codec.
My older player - Creative Zen Vision - also plays back MP4 (on the specs sheet) but that's only DivX/xViD. It can't do H.264 (before its time).
I think older Archos players used the same jargon for DivX/xViD encodes,
as MP4.
My current gen Cowon A3 can do MP4 in all forms - ie xVid, DivX and H.264, but this is a much newer player - it came out in 2008.

 

[km2]

My older player - Creative Zen Vision - also plays back MP4 (on the specs sheet) but that's only DivX/xViD. It can't do H.264 (before its time).
I think older Archos players used the same jargon for DivX/xViD encodes,
as MP4.
My current gen Cowon A3 can do MP4 in all forms - ie xVid, DivX and H.264, but this is a much newer player - it came out in 2008.

Thanks, interesting to know, I effectively missed that early generation of portable video players so good to get the details.

 

[mime]

Got myself a BlackBerry which meant that I could get rid of a host car chargers and cables in the car. Now I use it for an MP3 player over the BlueTooth car radio, a full on Garmin GPS and hands free car kit an use one charger. Got rid of Ipod and Garmin chargers all together.

 

[murraybiscuit]

@undefined. I presume you're an American / EU / Aus citizen? Otherwise, where did you legally obtain this stunning array of media

My thoughts on convergence (we're not there now, but not far away). Hopefully this isn't too OT...

Connectivity
=========

I'm backing mobile. Connectivity is the key. Saas means that OS, application and storage will increasingly happen via network in future (Blackberry, Mail for Exchange, google docs, box.net - I even see Pastel is going Saas). Bandwidth will be the currency of the future. Your device needs to be able to connect. Wherever you are. Phones support all major connectivity types. Including 3G which is all-pervasive (as opposed to wi-fi). I only see mobile connectivity increasing.

Storage
=======

Phones are up to 48GB storage now (N97). With increasing SD expansion, who knows where it's going? Remember 512 MB compact flash cards three years ago? Sis! Storage media should be large capacity, small form-factor and transferrable from one device to another (not only supported by Sony). Sure, SD isn't going to replace a 2TB hard drive, but do you really lug your entire music and HD video collection around everywhere you go? That said, next gen SD will support up to 2TB of data (standards are defined, hardware already being developed, follow link on wikipedia - SD). And if you can set up your home-based NAS device / PC as a server, what's going to stop you streaming / downloading files from it via phone with a client app and fast connection in future?

Playback / output
=============

Another post has already commented on iPhone playback via TV. The N97 screen allows for true widescreen playback when viewed on the device and allows for TV out. Lots of phones support TV out. Mobile displays aren't as nice as a larger PSP-style screen, but not as bad as you might think.

Digital content should not be stored on a variety of optical media. Why should I have read-only medium lying around, the sole purpose of which is to contain a single file? Resolution should not be tied to medium. Playback devices should support a variety of codecs into the future. Format should not be tied to hardware. Why should I buy expensive new technology just to support playback of a new format? Software should do the playback and I should be able to upgrade the software to do this, not my hardware. Big files should be transferred via USB / removable memory / wi-fi. Software can be easily upgraded / downloaded on phones to support new AV formats. Go mobile apps (Apple, Nokia, Android). Not so easy to install 3rd party players on a dedicated playback device.

Nobody's said anything about streaming media? Although it's still being tested locally, DVBH playback is natively supported on certain handsets already in the market. This can also be outputted to TV (works ok at PAL, decent audio, and can be recorded, with no cloud cover issues). That can replace my Dstv decoder. Another device gone, yay!

Status quo
========

The downside with mobile right now is high resolution graphics, 3d rendering and 5.1 sound. Separation of playback from telephony also needs to be resolved. Maps are clumsy on smaller screens. Screen size for video playback isn't great, but not as bad as you think on larger phones. Bluetooth audio and FM transmission in cars is a plus. Dedicated hardware may have an edge in certain areas at the moment, but if you think about mobile connectivity, processor, media playback and storage capability 5 years ago, market adoption and demand suggests convergence is going the phone route. And a great phone is certainly going to be a heck of a lot cheaper than all those devices sold separately.

For now, I want a PS3. My phone can do all the rest on the road.