Microsoft warned to cut market share

Huh?

No end user pays for a licence they didn't receive.

Well according to you it is OK for an OEM to pay for a license that an end user doesn't receive and at the end of the day the cost of that unshipped license has to be recouped from the consumer by the OEM, therefore technically speaking all pre-built system buyers pay a small portion of the value of the license that some other end user didn't receive.

Someone has to pay for my software that wasn't shipped, I have children to feed, well OK not children, but I have me to feed!

Also you still haven't answered my question. Are you saying that it is acceptable for anyone to pay for something that wasn't shipped?

I really want to go back to the days where machines didn't come with an OS pre-installed at all. That way you don't get adware and you get to pick the OS you want without all this nonsense. For those of you who say "but how would I know that all the hardware in my machine will function on that OS?" I have an answer. In the retail store have machine in the store running all the OSes to prove that the hardware will function with those OSes.
 
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Moreover, MS's failure to conform with ODF standards fully, will ensure, that no viable competition exists.
Uhm, I think you better look at that again, MS is not failing to conform to standards, they are infact more standard complient than OpenOffice itself.

Already, MS used highly unethical tactics to push through the OOXML as a standard, which, they will ensure is never fully compatible with rival productivity suites. So, in the end, we are forced to use Office, not matter what, despite the fact that a free (and almost as good) office productivity suite exists.
I think you have to get your facts straight on the Open Standards and OpenXML. And another thing, its not MS's responsibility to ensure other people are complient to their standard. The standard is published and if you want to use it, it is open to impliment - what you do with it when you impliment it is your problem, not theirs.
The problem is that Microsoft products are not standards compliant. Therefore there interoperability with other pieces of software out there is non-existent. They do this to ensure that consumers that want to use an effective alternative can't because everyone else is using the MS software. They have used their dominance in one market (the OS market) to squeeze out companies in other markets.

In the case of MSOffice, once you have run MSOffice, it is not easy to move your documents from it out to another piece of software. Why shouldn't you be allowed to do that in an effortless way? After all it is your data, what right does a company like Microsoft have to create something that attempts to prevent you (or at least places barriers in your way) from extracting your data and moving it to another providers software suite?

You can say that "everyone has a choice" all you want. The point is that people use MSOffice as a result of Microsoft's OS dominance and because everyone else is using MSOffice, those of us who want to choose something different can't because MSOffice is designed to not use proper standards-compliant formats for documents, spreadsheets etc. that all the other software suites out there use. By all means let MS products use there own MS formats, but why can't they support standards as well? Other suites don't seem to have a problem doing this.
Dude, I think you have to look at this again. Have you had a look at the implimentation of ODF in Office 2007? Microsoft is more standard complient with their implimentation than OpenOffice themselfs! That says a lot!
 
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Why do you keep missing the point? Is missing the point like oxygen to you? Do you need it to stay alive?
The fact that Microsoft has yet to create an environment in Windows that allows it to run Linux and mac programs within it is Microsoft's fault, not Linux or Apple's. Linux has Wine to run Windows applications, it has gone to great lengths to attempt to make software designed for Windows to run on it, Microsoft has not reciprocated.

I fear your missing the point i am making, microsoft do not need to make linux programs compatible, why do they need to? Linux has to try to lure windows users over because if windows users can run their programs they may switch but it is not up to microsoft to help the competition. Why would you want to help your competition? For some odd reason the linux boys think microsoft need to do this and for the life of me i cannot grasp why. Linux tries to make windows programs run because so many people use windows, microsoft could care less what linux does, it could also care less if programs made for windows are not made for linux, maybe you should go to big companies like corel and adobe and ask why their latest products fail to run on linux. Explain to me why windows should give linux the time of day let alone make anything compatible? Linux has to make windows stuff work on linux and mostly they fail with a lot of windows programs, the reason is linux is not windows.

I am not so sure mac would want their software to work on windows for the same reason windows does not want their stuff to work on other platforms.
 
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No tassidar arthur has it quite correct, why do mac applications and linux applications not work on windows?

What I am trying to tell you is that the reason Linux and Mac applications don't run on Windows is because Microsoft don't have a system developed to emulate Linux and Mac environments.

microsoft do not need to make linux programs compatible, why do they need to?...

...Explain to me why windows should give linux the time of day let alone make anything compatible?

No offence, but you aren't making a lot of sense here, you are the one that brought up Linux and Mac stuff running on Windows machines.

You are being contradictory, in the first quote you have asked why Linux and Mac applications don't run on Windows. When that question is answered you then say that Microsoft don't need to make an application that emulates Linux or Mac environments because Microsoft Windows doesn't need to run those applications (:confused:HUH?!?!:confused:). That level of crazy makes me think you are the kind of person that thinks toasters talk to him.

We all know that Microsoft will never do this, but understand that the reason Linux and Mac software doesn't run on Windows is the fault of Microsoft not of Linux or Mac developers.

The ability to run applications designed for other OSes is a feature, one that Windows lacks.
 
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So what windows programs run on mac? You need the mac version or you have nothing.

Why does windows need linux's programs? linux needs to work with windows not the other way around. If you bothered to understand what i saying is that mac and linux apps don't work on windows why would windows apps work on linux or mac? Adobe makes products for both mac and pc why not for linux?

Yea mielie is correct and that is my point, they don't need the feature on windows, does not take a rocket scientist to see that. What your saying is windows should accommodate all platforms for some strange reason.
 
So what windows programs run on mac? You need the mac version or you have nothing.

Why does windows need linux's programs? linux needs to work with windows not the other way around. If you bothered to understand what i saying is that mac and linux apps don't work on windows why would windows apps work on linux or mac? Adobe makes products for both mac and pc why not for linux?

Yea mielie is correct and that is my point, they don't need the feature on windows, does not take a rocket scientist to see that. What your saying is windows should accommodate all platforms for some strange reason.
Again you have missed the point. No one is saying that Windows applications need to run on other OSes, that is not what the discussion is about. Please go back and show me where in this discussion Windows applications running in other OSes was mentioned.

This discussion is about whether or not Microsoft purposefully uses it's position of market dominance in the OS market to stifle competition in other markets. Many examples have been mentioned before. If Microsoft has done this, then they are guilty and deserve the fine. If they continue to do this despite the warnings and the fines then they need to be broken up.

No one is asking that MS bend over backwards to make their software run on other platforms.

A feature that they don't need.
I agree, but then again I didn't ask the question, killadoob did.
 
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I looked back and cannot see my question that you seem to want to answer, was it why mac's and pc's don't gel or what?
 
No tassidar arthur has it quite correct, why do mac applications and linux applications not work on windows?

There is your question.

You asked it, I answered it, then you declared that Mac and Linux applications don't need to run on Windows, (which personally I agree with perhaps with the acception of shell commands, everyone should integrate those into the DOS prompt they rock). Seemed like an insane thing to do, ask why linux and mac stuff doesn't run on Windows then when it gets answered say "linux and mac stuff doesn't need to run on Windows".

Doesn't matter really this seems to just have devolved into a Linux vs. Apple vs. Microsoft thing again, which is just ridiculous because all these OSes have merits.

The fact of the matter is that Microsoft use their position as an OS monopoly to undermine competition in other markets, killadoob himself admitted this quite readily. That is illegal, that is why they were fined. It doesn't matter how they do it, just that they are doing it. It seems as though killadoob is OK with it, personally I find it disgusting. I use Windows because under certain circumstances it is the best thing for the job. I also use Linux because under circumstances it is the best thing for the job. Personally I dislike Microsoft as a company though, just as I dislike Apple.
 
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Uhm, I think you better look at that again, MS is not failing to conform to standards, they are infact more standard complient than OpenOffice itself.

I think you have to get your facts straight on the Open Standards and OpenXML. And another thing, its not MS's responsibility to ensure other people are complient to their standard. The standard is published and if you want to use it, it is open to impliment - what you do with it when you impliment it is your problem, not theirs.
Dude, I think you have to look at this again. Have you had a look at the implimentation of ODF in Office 2007? Microsoft is more standard complient with their implimentation than OpenOffice themselfs! That says a lot!

Please justify these statements. If refer you to the following document:
As we’ve warned right from the beginning, Microsoft will make a lot of noise to pretend that it supports ODF and only give it a very bad name and discourage its use while giving CIOs reasons never to dump Microsoft Office for lack of ODF support (no matter the level of support). Microsoft is doing it all in a hurry to just drop an “ODF” label on the box and then use the likes of Waggener Edstrom to make loads of noise (like never seen before) and associate Microsoft’s Office with ODF ’support’.

If this rush job sounds like a familiar trick, it ought to. Rather than support ODF right from the start Microsoft hurried up with its phony format and shoved it down ISO’s throat using plenty of corruption.

You are probably well aware of the shena****ns around the accreditation of OOXML as a standard. South Africa, as a nation was highly opposed to the accreditation. If you are interested, you can read more here:
http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/26/ooxml-incidents-p-to-s/

Reports start to appear in the press about the ODF support quality enabled by the Service Pack 2 inside Microsoft Office 2007. I could say that I’m not surprised,
but I somewhat had also expected the contrary. Unfortunately it seems we have here a poor implementation of ODF. If further reports confirm it (and I have no serious doubt they will),
we will have the case of a monopolistic vendor messing up its own implementation of an open standard and have no viable excuse for doing so.

If we are to believe several reports who all link to Rob Weir’s own thorough review ,
Microsoft has not only done a poor job implementing ODF, it has also ended up into a quite unique endless loop phenomenon . What this basically means is that in some instances
ODF documents created by Microsoft Office will only be readable and editable in… Microsoft Office. How was this possible? Apparently when you want to mess up something, you always find ways to do so.
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2009/05/06/odf-with-no-excuse/

Also:
Microsoft implemented OOXML (their XML based file format which is essentially a binary dump of the memory footprint of your document wrapped in an amazingly obscure and illegible XML schema) in Office 2007. You may have even received the odd file with a .docx or .xlsx extension. Then some kind of panic happened in MS and they decided that because Governments and other public bodies were asking for ODF (ISO/IEC 26300 Open Document Format supported by many applications including OpenOffice.org) they’d better get OOXML standardised too. So in a rush job, Microsoft’s specification publicist ECMA took the format used on Office 2007, got the developer documentation and wrote a bit more stuff around it and published it as ECMA 376. It then got submitted to the ISO for “fast tracking”. Oh yes, did I mention the “specification” was over 6000 pages long? Needless to say there was lots of argy bargy back and forth, the document got changed quite a bit, lots of money changed hands, loads of small countries from the developing world suddenly got very interested in XML Document Specifications and decided to become paid up members of the standards bodies and the specification scraped through about a year ago to become probably the worst example of a supposed International standard the world has ever seen (IMHO).

Do be advised also that today, as far as I am aware. there is no currently available end-user product (free or commercial) for reading and writing ISO IEC 29500 (OOXML) files. Microsoft Office 2007 doesn’t; it supports something similar to the first edition of ECMA 376 but probably not quite the same and I’m not sure anyone really cares anyway.
http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/04/30/ooxml-nobody-knows-what-it-is-for-or-why/

So much for being so compliant. Might I suggest that you check your sources before launching such a weak and unsupported attack.

What we can see here, is the long arm of "embrace, extend and eliminate" at work here.
 
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So what windows programs run on mac? You need the mac version or you have nothing.

Why does windows need linux's programs? linux needs to work with windows not the other way around. If you bothered to understand what i saying is that mac and linux apps don't work on windows why would windows apps work on linux or mac? Adobe makes products for both mac and pc why not for linux?

Yea mielie is correct and that is my point, they don't need the feature on windows, does not take a rocket scientist to see that. What your saying is windows should accommodate all platforms for some strange reason.

What does all this have to do with the argument?
 
Uhm, I think you better look at that again, MS is not failing to conform to standards, they are infact more standard complient than OpenOffice itself.

I think you have to get your facts straight on the Open Standards and OpenXML. And another thing, its not MS's responsibility to ensure other people are complient to their standard. The standard is published and if you want to use it, it is open to impliment - what you do with it when you impliment it is your problem, not theirs.

Dude, I think you have to look at this again. Have you had a look at the implimentation of ODF in Office 2007? Microsoft is more standard complient with their implimentation than OpenOffice themselfs! That says a lot!
I think you are confusing "Just Works™" with standards. The two are very different, really. :rolleyes:

Remember,
Micro$oft doesn't own printing/publishing
Micro$oft doesn't own the Internet
Micro$oft doesn't own networking
Micro$oft doesn't own telecommunication
Micro$oft doesn't own science...... the list goes on and on.

They don't get to set the standards.

E.g. My conpumpenrator works well with my thingymalingy.... Therefore, my conpumpenrator is standard-compliant. :)
 
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1) So now it's a moral or legal law that you have to comply with ODF? And if you don't you're bad, bad, bad? Will someone please call the adults.

2) Porchrat: Regarding per-CPU licences: The first thing you need to know is that this idea was first suggested to MSFT by IHVs. I kid you not. Almost all IHVs prefer "per-CPU" volume counts to any alternative. This is not something MSFT foisted on IHVs with a heavy hand. Your reasoning sounds OK, but it's actually a bit more interesing than that. There are other factors that alter the economics so that in reality you probably end up paying less because your hardware supplier freely and willingly entered into a "per-CPU" licence agreement with MSFT. This sounds counterintuitive, but it's true, because there are many other points your logic algorithm doesn't consider, and these all add to making a substantial difference. Let me give you some examples:
- Upfront volume commitments get a better price than the same volume without commitment. Why? Less revenue certainty means greater risk, and that translates into price. This is standard and almost universal business practice for centuries, especially in high volume high value business. By making an upfront volume purchase commitment a purchaser can get a better per-unit price. This holds for components, commodities, etc, and it is also true in software.
- Payment terms must factor in the cost of money as well as the spread between costs incurred and revenues received. This can make a significant difference in total fully burdened cost.
- Administration and verification costs can be substantial. This element is especially important in software licensing agreeements where price is tied to volumes, because unlike almost any other physical commodity, 99.9% of software's value is intellectual not physical, and the replication cost bears little or no relation to the intellectual value. If an IHV quickly needs another 10,000 MOSFETs or HDDs or whatever to meet a special order he has to buy them in from a component manufacturer or distributor, and that is easily tracked and audited, because these are physical goods. It's an entirely different story with software, so verifying the record-keeping is essential.
- For any IHV who signs a "per-CPU" agreement, in any case almost all their shipped systems will include Windows, otherwise it's not worth it. If you know anything about the PC manufacturing business you will appreciate that it's actually cheaper and easier for them to count total manufactured systems (of say a model range) than to manage each unit discretely. MS and the IHV can easily and independently (and therefore more cost-effectively) verify the number of units shipped (eg CPUs, HDD supplied to the IHV) than the alternative of recording, reporting, verifying and auditing each unit and serial number.

Bottom line: The term "per-CPU" agreement does not mean that every system made and shipped by the IHV is licensed with Windows, even of it ships "naked". Neither does it mean that Microsoft get a payment for every PC shipped, even if it actually comes without a licence. It refers only to the number used to calculate volume discounts. In retrospect it's probably a bad choice of words, but it's a sound and reasonable principle. It's a number both parties can easily agree, measure, administer, audit and verify. There is absolutely nothing sinister or predatory about it. Just ask the IHVs themselves. After all, they are the ones who decide whether they'll include Windows with their machines. Or not.

Yes, it sure sounds as if your naked PC (MSFT term for system with no opsys licence) from a per-CPU IHV is more expensive because someone has to pay MSFT for the licence that isn't shipped on it. However, the IHV is actually getting a volume discount that actually make his average systems cost lower. What your IHV is actually saying is: "It's actually cheaper for me (therefore more profitable/lower price to you) to count each system made toward the volume discount commitment and to get alll the price advantages in volume commitment, actual volumes shipped, payment terms, and lower admin costs. My whole line is geared to loading and shipping Windows as default, so it's easier and cheaper to handle the exceptions than to have extra processses for the great majority. From a manufacturing vewpoint it's a disruption of our process flow, packaging, documentation, and shipping process to make PCs without Windows (ie it costs us). We'll take the price of Windows off the naked PCs (and we lose more here) just to keep that small number of customers happy, but that's more hassle (and cost) for us." Apart from the direct royality cost, for some IHVs it actually costs them more to make naked systems outside of the high-spurt lines.

Microsoft is far from unique in this, by the way. You'd be surprised how many of your regular goods include per-system licence fees, royalties and other charges even when they are not directly applicable to that particular device/unit. But it is not up to me to reveal.

So, in reality no naked system actually has a paid-for Windows licence; and MS does not get revenue for that naked system. It's as true to say that the IHV gets the naked system to count towards his volume discount even though he doesn't actually ship a Windows licence on it.
 
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You can use the world 'illegal', but I will to my dying day maintain that there was nothing immoral or unethical in what we did. On the contrary, it was good and moral and ethical, almost to a fault. Aggressive, yes - our shareholders and partners expect nothing less, and rightly so. To the best of my knowledge, hand on heart, I have never seen or even heard of the slightest whiff of unethical or morally questionable behaviour inside Microsoft.

Stop burrying your head up yer a$$ and look OUTSIDE MS ... read the news, .. be aware of the world you live in ... the one MS screws over every day. Take a breath of Open Source.

But trust me on the sun-screen.


A Timeline of Micosoft hurt:
http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/04/timeline-of-microsoft-hurt.html


Microsoft, A History of Anticompetitive Behavior and Consumer Harm:
http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepaper.pdf
 
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