Mine Nationalisation for Dummies - please advise.

[daveza]

Does anyone have info on how exactly how the fat one and his henchmen plan to do the whole nationalisation thing please.

Option 1 - they pay for the mines: - where does the money come from, and how long would it take to recover this expense before turning a profit.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc


Option 2 - they just take ( steal ) the mines: - nobody will ever invest in South Africa again.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc

Seriously, does the ancyl actually have a plan longer than an A4 page in length ?

I await to be enlightened in anticipation and trepidation.

 

[dlk001]

Does anyone have info on how exactly how the fat one and his henchmen plan to do the whole nationalisation thing please.

You asking the wrong crowd buddy but here is a link to their nationalisation document.

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71654?oid=158357&sn=Detail

 

[Bosvark@]

This whole mine thing is scaring me, they can do whatever - they are the big 'G'. I am surprosed the Rand is doing so well considering all this at the moment.

 

[daveza]

Interesting - this certainly wasn't drawn up by the ancyl.

82. The State capacity to manage enterprises is doubted, often in comparison to the State's oversight or lack thereof of key State owned enterprises such as the South African Airways (SAA), ESKOM, SABC and Denel. The comparison is not fair because in most instances, these have failed due to sheer criminality, mismanagement and patronage which characterised the most of these entities and very weak accountability systems.

But the mines will be different how ?

88. The other potential challenge to the Nationalisation of Mines will come from those who have private interests in Mining. These include the established mining corporations and recent past beneficiaries of mining activities. These interests should altogether be dismissed as they have potential to undermine the thoroughgoing pace of the National Democratic Revolution.

And I thought the revolution was over.

What I don't see is whether they expect to pay or steal the mines.


How about they nationalise one mine and show us that it can work.

Oh yes, they've done that already and it didn't.

 

[dlk001]

How about they nationalise one mine and show us that it can work.

True and Chilean government has done the same.

 

[alloytoo]

Does anyone have info on how exactly how the fat one and his henchmen plan to do the whole nationalisation thing please.

Option 1 - they pay for the mines: - where does the money come from, and how long would it take to recover this expense before turning a profit.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc


Option 2 - they just take ( steal ) the mines: - nobody will ever invest in South Africa again.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc

Seriously, does the ancyl actually have a plan longer than an A4 page in length ?

I await to be enlightened in anticipation and trepidation.

As you so rightly point out, either they pay, and suffer the same return on investment constraints as evil capitalists, or they don't pay and watch massive disinvestment in SA.

Julius, like mad Bob, cannot comprehend what first year economics students know, that in a sophisticated economy, any industry in intimately entwined with many other sectors.

 

[shaunvw]

Does anyone have info on how exactly how the fat one and his henchmen plan to do the whole nationalisation thing please.

Option 1 - they pay for the mines: - where does the money come from, and how long would it take to recover this expense before turning a profit.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc


Option 2 - they just take ( steal ) the mines: - nobody will ever invest in South Africa again.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc

Seriously, does the ancyl actually have a plan longer than an A4 page in length ?

I await to be enlightened in anticipation and trepidation.

When this happens they'll still find a way to blame the capatalists. The blame game is what the anc do best.

 

[Flanders]

I'd guess more along the lines of option 2, Dave.

I reckon it'd be a hostile takeover (the African way) then incentive would come by pumping some fat, clueless tenderpreneur full of moolah to keep the operation running. Hell, with the dollar signs these guys would have in their eyes, they might even feel generous enough to extend the offer all the way down to the coal face so to speak (yet obviously in relative terms - ie. pay the workers only fractionally more than they got on the "evil" capitalist system). Afterall, if the mine doesn't run there's nothing to steal, right? It would also serve another purpose; fatboy and co. can then claim they're uplifting the man on the street and this would be due to the fact that things like maintenance and environmental responsibilities would take a a back seat. Then, split the profit with your chommies and Bob's your despotic uncle!

That's just my opinion on how I guess they'd go about it. I could be wrong but I'm guessing if I am it's only about the workers being paid more.

 

[sox63]

Does anyone have info on how exactly how the fat one and his henchmen plan to do the whole nationalisation thing please.

Option 1 - they pay for the mines: - where does the money come from, and how long would it take to recover this expense before turning a profit.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc


Option 2 - they just take ( steal ) the mines: - nobody will ever invest in South Africa again.
who will actually run the mines - not the same people who do so now surely as there is no incentive.
when the mines begin to fail, the workers ( anc voters ) will go on strike and the anc will be unable to blame the capitalists, the taxman will lose huge amounts of income thus having nothing to use for governing the country or for buying new Mercedes and fancy houses etc etc etc

Seriously, does the ancyl actually have a plan longer than an A4 page in length ?

I await to be enlightened in anticipation and trepidation.

A combination of both I think. But I would not say steal, as I dont think its possible to steal a company that been operating. However, they could revoke mining rights, thus forcing the mining corporation involved to partner with Government in the running of the mines in exchange for exclusive profit sharing or something along those lines.

In my little conspiracy theory, I think the Mining industry is behind this plan ultimately. The way I understand it, mining is not the booming industry it used to not so long ago with the high cost of mining safely AND the high value of the rand. So there must be a LOT of marginally profitable mines out there that they are keen to get rid off. In comes the ANCYL, with its traditionally close ties to this industry and ability to bring the idea on the agenda. IMO, the country will be sold the marginal mines and the really profitable ones will remain in the corporations control with increased money being paid to government.

Just a conspiracy...

 

[w1z4rd]

I think a super tax on the mines is a better idea than mine nationalisation.

 

[sox63]

I think a super tax on the mines is a better idea than mine nationalisation.

Is that not the same thing though? As proposed in Australia, government would take 50+% of the profits! To me thats nationalisation without the actual taking control of the company...

 

[Nerfherder]

I think they wont ever manage the mines, they will just be majority shareholders.


If you want to know how its done then ask Australia, they did it a few years ago. Ironic thing is that there are quite a few mines in RSA that are owned by Australia.

 

[w1z4rd]

Is that not the same thing though? As proposed in Australia, government would take 50+% of the profits! To me thats nationalisation without the actual taking control of the company...

Good, those are non-reusable resources that should go towards the benefit of the whole country.

Im so not anti-nationalization. What I am freaked about is that the ANCYL could not organize a screw in a whore house... theres absolutely no way they could pull this off... also, the corruption will be exceptionally high

 

[sox63]

I think they wont ever manage the mines, they will just be majority shareholders.

If you want to know how its done then ask Australia, they did it a few years ago. Ironic thing is that there are quite a few mines in RSA that are owned by Australia.

I agree. Thats the way it will probably play out in the end, IMO.

 

[BTTB]

The mineral wealth beneath the soil, monopoly industries and banks should be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole.

Last sentence. Ah, so they are gunning for the Banks as well. That should garner some support at grass roots level. Even I can relate to that. Banks are the reason the whole world went into financial meltdown. Our own Banks only out their to create shareholder value at the expense of many ordinary and financially stretched/stressed people.

Thanks for the link to the policy document.

There is talk that this whole Nationalisation of Mines thing is to acquire taxpayers money to bail out the BEE Mining deals that have gone sour.
Malema did not write that policy document, it was created by "people" for them. Find out who these people are and you will get to the bottom of the story.

 

[dlk001]

I really hope government never takes ownership of mines. While most of these mines might look profitable now, they are a long term environmental debt.

 

[Nerfherder]

Good, those are non-reusable resources that should go towards the benefit of the whole country.

Im so not anti-nationalization. What I am freaked about is that the ANCYL could not organize a screw in a whore house... theres absolutely no way they could pull this off... also, the corruption will be exceptionally high

ANCYL are actually preventing it from happening by running their mouths like that. I think it could be a very good thing if they do it correctly.

 

[Nod]

If the other state owned enterprises where run successfully without being a burden to the tax payer, I would have thought that maybe they could have started with one mine as proof of concept, just to show it works, and investors still get their money's worth, but, as it stands, such a state owned enterprise does not exist.

 

[Nerfherder]

If the other state owned enterprises where run successfully without being a burden to the tax payer, I would have thought that maybe they could have started with one mine as proof of concept, just to show it works, and investors still get their money's worth, but, as it stands, such a state owned enterprise does not exist.

Only difference is that the other state owned enterprises are all money sinks... there is no way that the NHI could (or should) ever make money.
A mine is a cash cow.

 

[Nod]

Only difference is that the other state owned enterprises are all money sinks... there is no way that the NHI could (or should) ever make money.
A mine is a cash cow.

Not only that, but SA could have created more jobs by processing the produce from the mines locally, instead of exporting everything to Japan, or wherever, to get processed, and then we buy it back again. Some things are done in SA, but not enough.