MTN changes data usage rules?

Jannie, with all due respect its all interrelated.

I personally don't feel screwed over when I lose data with CellC or 8ta, because I paid a fair amount for the bundle, and the OOB price is more than acceptable. With Vodacom I feel screwed regardless because your pricing is so far beyond ridiculous, and you try and confuse the hell out of consumers. I consider myself relatively technically astute and there are times when even I get confused by your bundle roll over policies, or your promotions or something. Of late Vodacom seems to be hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible, whilst still screwing their loyal customers for as much as possible.

What do I have to do to get my data for 6c/Mb.. or even 14c/mb. (I'm not interested in this NightOwl concept since like most normal people I actually need to sleep at night)
 
In terms of pricinng, you can buy data from Vodacom [highlight]on contract[/highlight] for a little as 6c/MB (3c/MB if you include NO) and as a bundle for 14c/MB (7c/MB if you include NO). This is pretty much in line with the industry.

Well there's Vodacom's problem: no sane person would want to use Vodacom's contract data bundles which only operate in Vodacom's OOB shark infested waters.

Taking the following into account:
http://www.vodacom.co.za/personal/phonesandpackages/datapriceplans/broadbandstandardprepaid
the closest to 14c/MB is Vodacom's 3GB for R499, make that 20GB for R499 on TopUp or prepaid and I will happily give Vodacom some of my hard earned money.

Even though it is a 24 month contract with 8ta (Telkom) one can get 10GB per month for R199 albeit a promotion that has been ongoing for a very long time now.

Cell C has:
1GB for R155
2GB for R310

I'm sure there is a recent MyBB article with similar comparisons in a nice table that you can link to if you still think Vodacom really is in line with its competitors.
 
Jannie, with all due respect its all interrelated.

I personally don't feel screwed over when I lose data with CellC or 8ta, because I paid a fair amount for the bundle, and the OOB price is more than acceptable. With Vodacom I feel screwed regardless because your pricing is so far beyond ridiculous, and you try and confuse the hell out of consumers. I consider myself relatively technically astute and there are times when even I get confused by your bundle roll over policies, or your promotions or something. Of late Vodacom seems to be hell bent on making everything as complicated as possible, whilst still screwing their loyal customers for as much as possible.

What do I have to do to get my data for 6c/Mb.. or even 14c/mb. (I'm not interested in this NightOwl concept since like most normal people I actually need to sleep at night)

Your PC doesn't sleep at night, neither do the updates from the Microsoft's of the world.

On the data side, we've actually been making thing simpler. We now have fewer data products than your favourite network. I know, I count them. ;)

The Mofaya promotions, especially on TopUp are simple and straightforward. Very good rates (down to 6c/MB) and no OOB. Exactly what everyone keeps on posting they want so I don't understand the confusion. It's like people WANT it to be complex. :confused:

If you've got a voice contract, have a look at the bolt-on bundles. You'll notice they dropped in price by around 40 to 60% in the last month and a 2GB bol-on bundle is now 14c/MB. Again simple.
 
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Well there's Vodacom's problem: no sane person would want to use Vodacom's contract data bundles which only operate in Vodacom's OOB shark infested waters.
Wrong. But then I can post the actual facts over and over and you'll just keep on repeating this, right? ;)
 
Wrong. But then I can post the actual facts over and over and you'll just keep on repeating this, right? ;)

Factual evidence that Vodacom's contract data customers are not insane for venturing into OOB shark infested waters, that I would like to see :)
 
Then I retract my initial comments..

Those prices are much closer to the mark. The OOB price is still a bit on the insane side, but at least I can get a vaguely decent bolt-on for not stupid money anymore.
 
While you wrote an extensive post, your mostly describe what actually happens already and I find few points that I can directly answer, but I'll try:
I didn't mean to ask anything - largely because I think I get the transient nature of data and the implications it has on the supply side of an MNO business - and instead was simply trying to in part by analogy set out that the technical considerations simply don't cut it because of the nature of end users. I went with the train analogy rather than the hotel rooms conundrum.

1. You're right that it is the Network Operators and ISPs that did the conversion of bits/second to bytes in constructing data products. You're wrong that it's just the MNOs, it's an idustry standard. This conversion is actually alien to the underlying technology and underlies most of the misunderstanding that arise by selling a 'bucket of data' when you actually sold access to a network for a specific period of time with a limit on usage.
Well I indicated Telkom and the MNOs, and I don't think its a broad industry standard but far more of a South African practice - there is probably a dozen other markets where it has happened but not enough to be broad - the idea of deeming "overuse" according to total data transferred over a time period is quite different to the idea of selling data by bundle sizes. If you look at "wireless providers" in the US - AT&T and Verizon - which pretty much matches VC and MTN they have moved towards caps not from them and the approach towards overusage is not an OOB shark but rather to charge a big bundle fee with a big bundle. The bundle sizes in play matter here and I am afraid the rates at under R100 a gig are significant.

Now I get that our market is a very different animal, and I strongly believe that the US approach to cellphones might work for the US (and would be of benefit to some high usage South Africans) but it won't work in SA, but the market is certainly lucrative as the financial statements show.
I suspect though that a CEO of a competitor to Vodacom actually made the call towards entrenching buckets of data.

The correct way to sell such a network would to make available a certain bit-rate for a specific time, say 1Mb/s for 30 days. Of course this would put the service financially beyond the reach of most people. Inversely, if I have to ensure the price is low enough (say R100 per month), the bit-rate would be so low, it would be unusable, something like a few bits/second. Unfortunately neither of these work for most consumers (enterprises buy this way, BTW); subscribers want sporadic access at the highest possible speed. The only way to do this is to convert to bytes. If you have a better way to sell such a network, I'm all ears.
A detailed proposal would only be sent with an invoice after being solicited :)
However part of your costs problem is found in the fact that you are setting time frames of 30 days - which is a long time and frankly is still orientated towards VCs billing system.
But as an idea into the hat:
I imagine you'd find quite a few people on this forum who wouldn't object to a well priced prepaid product for downloading distros (you know all the linux users) that is available in time capacity blocks of 512k/convenient factor (down/up) and 15mins on a repeat basis but can only be purchased online. So from a sales portal I select my time blocks, capacity and repeat cycle for up to 30 days and check it out - I can also download download managers and so on - pricing for time blocks is set according to the time of day which is built around demand but you (the MNO) have more flexibility so it doesn't occur that the network has every user who wants night owl rates kicking in at the same time. My thinking for implementation would be a special APN (which I am sure would allow authentication on a sim basis and which can run side by side with a "normal" implementation) and the user having their PC side of things "dialing in" through either a smartphone or usb modem the software on the PC side can get the schedule to know when to work (a nicely designed console would ideally allow the PC to have another internet connection and would have a download manager running, getting a newsgroup reader to "always use dialup" isn't a problem and the same applies for mail etc ...). The product would also be suitable for an entire array of uses where a batch of data needs to be transmitted on a daily basis but you don't require "always on" connectivity or you have always on connectivity through 3G but the big transfers are periodic - a mail server at a remote site, offsite backups, providing for an employee to work from home or on the road and accessing a corporate VPN. Apart from banking machines I think you could pretty much absorb the residual dial up market if it is well priced, hell a product of 15 minutes at 512k daily at R25 or less a month is pretty convenient and affordable for the "rural areas" - and Telkom would probably like to mothball the copper . With some network overhead and so on I reckon a base session amounts to transferring 50 megs and so you should get pretty close to a gig and a half a month. I suspect a fairly easy software upgrade on the Webbox could also see that product using the service. You also have possible applications for content sales - purchasing music etc ...

Of course using the 1Mb/s for 30 days benchmark, can you provide such a product with consumer grade contention ratios and consistency for R480 a month because then you could compete with TI ADSL, even if we use the business rates you looking at less R800 a month. And I am the first to acknowledge that the mobility factor comes into play but if your goal is 3G as a general broadband product that is the competition to look at.
Morevover if an ECNS licence holder were to approach VC with a business proposal of a "wireless local loop unbundling" nature what would Vodacom or MTNs response be - I am hoping that the Afrihost MTN arrangement moves in this direction, but it shouldn't be difficult to see where I am going. As an additional thought the notion of selling blocks should probably be run as a fairly autonomous business unit - office space in Jbay is cheap :)
BTW, I'm one of those "guys that work out the retail products[\i]" and I do believe I understand the landscape - but if you have any suggestions on how to do the conversion while losing the time-component, I'm ready to listen. ;)

See above. Also my point isn't that the time component needs to be lost it is that you can't rely on the underlying system as an argument for a pricing model "defect" (perceived or real). And honestly you seriously need to have words with the marketing people and internal corporate communications - because the message needs to be: so your usage is about 200 megs a month you should get 500 megs a month, with data usage more is always better; with all of VCs tv adverts I can't recall a single advert delivering the message that you should look to secure data at 150% of your estimated usage.

As I see it the longer a "bucket" of data has validity the more expensive it should be, so I do not see why Vodacom cannot sell non-expiring data at R200 a gig other than that it hurts sales of small expiring bundles with some users then purchasing a gig to last for a year or so for a not-so-smart phone; which is a valid business reason not to do it - but then it needs to be said that the decision is profit driven and accept the criticism that there is pillaging happening.

2. You make a few suggestions on what should happen at bundle end:

a. Pay OOB - we have this in place including the ability to pay OOB=IB (though you don't mention it as an option)
b. Throttle the sub - this is actually quite a bad idea as the vast majority of users don't understand this and end up experiencing what they believe is a bad network. Even if you tell them.
c. Allow the sub to buy another bundle - this is the option I also prefer and thus you get a notification (soon with click-through links) at 70%, 90% and 100% to do exactly this. Busy making this even more sophisticated.

You forgot an important 4 option: Stop the access - We do this today with TU and CLL.
My suggestion isn't that one of the options be followed indiscriminately but rather that the user gets a choice which can either be made in advance or once the cap is hit (in the same way of those bank authenticating thingies work). I also added that there are obvious and not obvious problems with the approach.

In any case, back on topic - so we've determined that Vodacom and MTN offers roll-over the others operators don't. And yet they get attacked for it while the guys that don't are not even in the discussion.
Well we have also established that the other operators are significantly cheaper - at least outside of the large enterprise clients - and I've presented the position which I think is broadly accepted that VC and MTN have better coverage and so forth which does impact on their costs to deliver.

As I've often posted on this topic, it seems the only way out of this is to remove roll-over so as to avoid any confusion on the benefits.
I don't think that would help your situation because there is now a reasonable expectation of roll-over - and it is this problem of reasonable expectation and the creation of a consumer expectation that comes into play.
 
Alas I was hoping JvZ would have responded. But I was giving a bit more thought to my principal annoyance with the big two which is captured in VCs constant reminder that the offer data at as low a 6c a meg: yep to get 6c a meg a person has to purchase a lot of data and that simply isn't the case for so many South Africans entering the data consumption market. Vodacom Internet Starter Pack and is in my opinion one of the most important products in improving accessibility in part because it includes the device but the internet daily product simply stinks. (On a related note the changes to the Webbox pricing is also a damn good thing)

MTN is only marginally better [but I get buy relying on their R49 for 75megs topped by 10 megs for R10 whenever it gives a rollover warning every three months or so - but I use Symbian (Nokia e63) and internet through ADSL] at the end if I were to be dependent on 3G as my main internet connection both big players would offer me a raw deal - I get more than 10Gigs through ADSL at a lower price than Vodacom's promotional R699 a month and I would never use more than a few gigs on a smartphone if I have internet available at home and so forth - - wifi offloading and all that.

Getting more people to use the internet is beneficial for the entire ecosystem and leads to businesses investing in internet technologies, but neither the webbox nor the starter are actually at 6c a meg and in both cases it isn't on your phone. And lets look at 6c a meg as a starting point and daily as a short enough period to matter. How about a R27 bundle which gives the user 15 megs a day (expiring at midnight or whatnot) for a month. This gets you to 6c a megabyte, will have several users not getting near to the allocated maximum amount and with the hefty R2 OOB rate it pays not to go out of bundle. Lets restrict the product against use in conjunction with with any other data product except the internet starter or webbox and add in a 75 megs a day at R135 prepaid for the month product and a 150 megs a day product at R250. Of course the real effect would be that a lot of users would avoid the 24 month contracts and the fact that 6c a meg is unsustainable on the VC network becomes clear. So okay lets give a 3rd of the data (set the price to 18c a meg) and add a few bigger packages you then end up with options of:

R27 a month for 5 megs of data daily (working out to 150 megs a month at 18c a meg if all megs are used)
R135 a month for 25 megs of data daily (working out to 750 megs a month at 18c a meg if all megs are used)
R249 a month for 50 megs of data daily (working out to 1500 megs a month at 16.6c a meg if all megs are used)
R499 a month for 100 megs of data daily (working out to 3000 megs a month at 16.3c a meg if all megs are used)

I probably shouldn't say a month because it is a 30 day period with each day topping up at some defined time, and if you really want to you could probably have the data being given in 5 intervals at 02:00, 06:00, 12:00, 18:00, 22:00 which of course is geared towards off-peak usage.

The R249 option together with the Internet Starter Pack gets households onto the Internet. This applies as much to MTN as to Vodacom but sadly their rep isn't as engaging.
 
as soon as I get my day-time job out of the way, I'll read and rspond
well solicit a detailed proposal - that surely forms part of the day-time job :)

Glad its a good conversation
 
Paul's posts are too long. I got bored after the first paragraph.

If I may add my opinion, I appreciate someone who puts some effort into their posts. A vast improvement on the many who seem to just be interested in post count rather than content. I have read every word posted by Paul and Jannie with interest.


To add though, I feel all these discussions seem to revolve around those who using mobile as their primary data source. I use wifi at the home and the office, and mobile data for when I'm on the road. As a result of my relatively low data use I get royally screwed with costs per meg. Pointless getting anything larger as it'll expire.
 
^ fingers crossed that a detailed proposal will be solicited :)
CellC's new R500 and get a bonus gig to use in 30 days on prepaid must surely be rattling some cages, an 8c per meg response (and quite a bit of the data is offpeak) for a 200megs a day (with the intervals) could hit a sweat spot as a prepaid product at R480. I'd recommend selling it outside the regular channel (a) I suspect you can reduce distribution costs and so on by running an office that handles the sales use internet media, (b) explaining the product may be a challenge for a lot of your shops - rather distribute flyers to them, (c) I suspect a significant portion of your market will be ADSL internet users - people going on holiday (to Jbay perhaps) or moving house or have become victims of a natural or other disaster killing ADSL for whatever period of time, and so you want ISPs to be comfortable selling this product without dealing with bigbad corporate (d) for the R480 product you shouldn't exclude contract customers (and enterprise customers) for whom the no other product rule makes little sense, by separating the sales channel it is possible to secure prepayment and bolting onto any Vodacom SIM card for the higher priced products.
 
While it is true that Cell-C have no roll-over or carry-over on their 12 x 2GB, 12 x 5GB and 365 day bundles, I have one of their Straight Up 100 contracts in my primary phone and there is some kind of roll-over or carry-over happening which I don't fully understand.

For my R99 per month subscription I should get 100 minutes, 100 SMS or MMS messages and 100 MB every month.

My current balance shows:
Available Free Minutes: 04:06:45.SMS/MMS: 281.Data: 277.66MB.
I remembered to check my balance today:
Available Free Minutes: 04:59:50.SMS/MMS: 299.Data: 276.57MB.

So it seems that my Cell-C Straight Up 100 contract has roll/carry over on voice, data and SMS for up to three times the monthly allocation. I believe this is the same policy that iBurst have on their data.

3 x 100 minutes = 300 minutes, divide by 60 = 5 hours
 
^ fingers crossed that a detailed proposal will be solicited :)
CellC's new R500 and get a bonus gig to use in 30 days on prepaid must surely be rattling some cages, an 8c per meg response (and quite a bit of the data is offpeak) for a 200megs a day (with the intervals) could hit a sweat spot as a prepaid product at R480. I'd recommend selling it outside the regular channel (a) I suspect you can reduce distribution costs and so on by running an office that handles the sales use internet media, (b) explaining the product may be a challenge for a lot of your shops - rather distribute flyers to them, (c) I suspect a significant portion of your market will be ADSL internet users - people going on holiday (to Jbay perhaps) or moving house or have become victims of a natural or other disaster killing ADSL for whatever period of time, and so you want ISPs to be comfortable selling this product without dealing with bigbad corporate (d) for the R480 product you shouldn't exclude contract customers (and enterprise customers) for whom the no other product rule makes little sense, by separating the sales channel it is possible to secure prepayment and bolting onto any Vodacom SIM card for the higher priced products.

still waiting i see......:whistle:
 
@Jan Vermeulen I hope you still folowing this thread but it looks to me like BS on part of MTN, I tested this today a week or so after my new recuring bundle was loaded at the end of my last billing cycle i had 135.94 remaining, and my monthy alocated bundle of 100MB got loaded
bundle.jpg

As you can see the bundle being used first is the 100MB (74.30 remaing exp 21/04) while the 135.94 (exp 02/03) is not being used and I will inevitably lose it.
 
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