Nanny ill - Payment?

Dolby said:
We had twins earlier this year and got a nanny Tuesday to Friday. Life has gone past us and we haven't signed the contract (our fault).

On the whole there have been a few niggles recently with her - but Friday she 'started' feeling ill and told us since then she's not feeling great. We figured it was building up to not coming in today and... Well, she's ill today.

So my question is about paying or not paying her. So I ask for a medical certificate and if provided, I need to pay? And if not?
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Only found this now, she most likely has bills and commitments that she needs to stick to so not paying her would hurt her livelihood. Without a contract you can't really force her to justify herself being sick but it is understandable to want to have proof, so going forward include it in the contract(and mention it isn't for you, it's for her to cover herself).

On that note, doctors are expensive and getting sick is a reality, at the same time you wouldn't want a sick person looking after your kids.
 
By law, if they work more than 24 hours you need to register for UIF. That lot are walking around the suburbs knocking on doors and asking if you have a domestic. Most certainly in PLZ.
Along with that is a contract and it's best to stick to the details in the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the LRA. They're entitled to leave, and most certainly sick leave. In that, if sick leave is taken on a Friday or a Monday they need to provide some form of sick note.
Just CYA when it comes to employing people. We have had to go through the long process of registering for UIF, paying penalties (we never knew we needed to in all honesty!), and then getting in a contract. Domestic signs daily time sheet and I sign that every so often. UIF is paid monthly (1% them, 1% you) and any sick leave is indicated along with annual leave.
 
Not quite following the whole, Domestic goes away during period etc so its a norm.

As with anything, contract or at worst BCEA there are rules, especially leave. If she was going away on holiday, she could ask for her leave and get paid with leave deducted. HOWEVER, the fact that she called in sick vs using her leave is odd? That's actually fraudulent because she can then use her leave at other times.

Personally, if you believe she is worth the hassle,

1. When she's back, have a sit down with her and ask why normal leave wasn't used. Regardless of what she says, you should issue a written warning.
2. You can also then give the choice of using her normal leave and being paid vs taking it as unpaid. Its not fair to you as an employer to be taken advantage of.
 
JohnMao said:
By law, if they work more than 24 hours you need to register for UIF. That lot are walking around the suburbs knocking on doors and asking if you have a domestic. Most certainly in PLZ.
Along with that is a contract and it's best to stick to the details in the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the LRA. They're entitled to leave, and most certainly sick leave. In that, if sick leave is taken on a Friday or a Monday they need to provide some form of sick note.
Just CYA when it comes to employing people. We have had to go through the long process of registering for UIF, paying penalties (we never knew we needed to in all honesty!), and then getting in a contract. Domestic signs daily time sheet and I sign that every so often. UIF is paid monthly (1% them, 1% you) and any sick leave is indicated along with annual leave.
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All that is order. She is entitled to leave and has always been. She would usually ask us and we will discuss. This time she pretended to be sick and did not ask us.

No more cappuccinos for her. Period.
 
Kosmik said:
Not quite following the whole, Domestic goes away during period etc so its a norm.

As with anything, contract or at worst BCEA there are rules, especially leave. If she was going away on holiday, she could ask for her leave and get paid with leave deducted. HOWEVER, the fact that she called in sick vs using her leave is odd? That's actually fraudulent because she can then use her leave at other times.

Personally, if you believe she is worth the hassle,

1. When she's back, have a sit down with her and ask why normal leave wasn't used. Regardless of what she says, you should issue a written warning.
2. You can also then give the choice of using her normal leave and being paid vs taking it as unpaid. Its not fair to you as an employer to be taken advantage of.
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No it has never been a norm. Has always been discussed.

Fortunately we haven't paid her bonus yet.

Although a believe no cappuccino's anymore will be her greatest loss.
 
JohnMao said:
By law, if they work more than 24 hours you need to register for UIF. That lot are walking around the suburbs knocking on doors and asking if you have a domestic. Most certainly in PLZ.
Along with that is a contract and it's best to stick to the details in the Basic Conditions of Employment Act and the LRA. They're entitled to leave, and most certainly sick leave. In that, if sick leave is taken on a Friday or a Monday they need to provide some form of sick note.
Just CYA when it comes to employing people. We have had to go through the long process of registering for UIF, paying penalties (we never knew we needed to in all honesty!), and then getting in a contract. Domestic signs daily time sheet and I sign that every so often. UIF is paid monthly (1% them, 1% you) and any sick leave is indicated along with annual leave.
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No
 
MightyQuin said:
No
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Law says for longer than two consecutive work days but there is a archaic interpretation that as the last work days was prior to a weekend and missed, weekend days count. That only applies in the cases where weekends are considered normal working hours ( hospitality etc ).

Also in the case of repeat illness in under 8 weeks, employer can request regardless of time period.
 
RedViking said:
All that is order. She is entitled to leave and has always been. She would usually ask us and we will discuss. This time she pretended to be sick and did not ask us.

No more cappuccinos for her. Period.
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No, then it's the same for her as for you and me. Sick on a Friday/Monday then they need to provide proof.
 
JohnMao said:
Would suggest you go read the law, or at least speak to someone who knows it. You're in deep shlt if you're caught.
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Labor law does NOT allow you to force employees to bring a medical certificate when you're are sick on a Monday OR a Friday.

It has been shown and discussed on this forum many times.
 
MightyQuin said:
Labor law does NOT allow you to force employees to bring a medical certificate when you're are sick on a Monday OR a Friday.

It has been shown and discussed on this forum many times.
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Oh, you see until you wrote that, I had no idea that "No" encompassed all of that. Shows you what happens when you explain a bit more.
 
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MightyQuin said:
No they do not. the Labor law is quite clear on that.
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www.experthub.info

What The Law Says About Employee Leave And Absence | ExpertHub

What are your employees entitled to when it comes to leave?
www.experthub.info www.experthub.info

If someone abuses sick leave on a Monday/Friday you can request one. I'll dig some more on the actual wording around in in legal terms.
It is the employer's right to request a sick certificate. Not everything the employee does is protected with no consequences for the employee or recourse for the emploer.
 
JohnMao said:
www.experthub.info

What The Law Says About Employee Leave And Absence | ExpertHub

What are your employees entitled to when it comes to leave?
www.experthub.info www.experthub.info

If someone abuses sick leave on a Monday/Friday you can request one. I'll dig some more on the actual wording around in in legal terms.
It is the employer's right to request a sick certificate. Not everything the employee does is protected with no consequences for the employee or recourse for the emploer.
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Many employers have a policy that requires employees to produce a medical certificate if
they are absent from work on a Friday, a Monday or both a Friday and a Monday, or where
the employee is absent on the day before or after a public holiday.

This is not permissible as
the Act clearly provides that a certificate can only be requested where an employee is
absent from work for more than two consecutive days (in other words, three days or more).
Employers may rely on the provisions of section 23 (1) referred to above - where an
employee is absent on more than two occasions in an eight week period, but specific
reference to Fridays, Mondays and Public holidays is not allowed.
 
The law has made it onerus for normal people to employ someone. You get a gardener/handyman you like, would like to employ him for every Saturday to do the **** that you too lazy to do (or in rare cases you cannot), boom you need to register him for UIF and you need to jump through hoops. It is not worth it to employ anyone anymore. It also exposes you to legal risks that you can simply avoid. So back to cutting your own grass, weeding yourself.
 
rh1 said:
The law has made it onerus for normal people to employ someone. You get a gardener/handyman you like, would like to employ him for every Saturday to do the **** that you too lazy to do (or in rare cases you cannot), boom you need to register him for UIF and you need to jump through hoops. It is not worth it to employ anyone anymore. It also exposes you to legal risks that you can simply avoid. So back to cutting your own grass, weeding yourself.
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I don't think this is fair. Your company you work for also pays UIF, which many had to make use of during this lockdown muckup. Why is a gardener or domestic not entitled to it?

If you refer to the problems that comes with employing a domestic and unfairness in the legal system, it is a different story. But if anyone works for any person or company for more than 24 hours a month, you and anyone else, is entitled to a contract and UIF. People are just not happy that their once "slaves" are now also having the benefits of a so called "normal" employee.

But as far as politics and the legal system goes, it is corrupt in so many ways.
 
RedViking said:
I don't think this is fair. Your company you work for also pays UIF, which many had to make use of during this lockdown muckup. Why is a gardener or domestic not entitled to it?

If you refer to the problems that comes with employing a domestic and unfairness in the legal system, it is a different story. But if anyone works for any person or company for more than 24 hours a month, you and anyone else, is entitled to a contract and UIF. People are just not happy that their once "slaves" are now also having the benefits of a so called "normal" employee.

But as far as politics and the legal system goes, it is corrupt in so many ways.
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I think the difference is whether a person who come once a week is an employee or an independent contractor? The state decided that the person is an employee with all the benefits and disadvantages that comes with it. Some of us just decided it is not worth it. It really has to be a serious need in my household before I would consider getting an employee. Before, it was more of nice to have, ask him what their rate was, and if you could afford it, you gave them a chance. I have not employed anyone in years.

If I do employ someone, it would be done as per legal requirements. But the truth of the matter is, I would not.


For anyone who is an employer, it is always good to read the BCEA Act, I read it at least 2-3 times a year: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201409/a75-97.pdf

The common contravention of the BCEA in my experience are as follows:

1. You need to have a contract with your employee, if you dont, you are in contravention of the act! (Section 29 of the Act)
2. Overtime: Basically you cannot have your employee work more than 10 hours a week overtime and cannot work in a day more than 12 hours ( i.e. 8 normal and 4 overtime or 9 normal and 3 overtime) limited to 10 hours for a week, this can be temporarily increased but only for 3 months and you have to wait a year before you can increase it again. (Section 10 of the Act)

Got to go. Will continue afterwards.
 
rh1 said:
I think the difference is whether a person who come once a week is an employee or an independent contractor? The state decided that the person is an employee with all the benefits and disadvantages that comes with it. Some of us just decided it is not worth it. It really has to be a serious need in my household before I would consider getting an employee. Before, it was more of nice to have, ask him what their rate was, and if you could afford it, you gave them a chance. I have not employed anyone in years.

If I do employ someone, it would be done as per legal requirements. But the truth of the matter is, I would not.


For anyone who is an employer, it is always good to read the BCEA Act, I read it at least 2-3 times a year: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201409/a75-97.pdf

The common contravention of the BCEA in my experience are as follows:

1. You need to have a contract with your employee, if you dont, you are in contravention of the act! (Section 29 of the Act)
2. Overtime: Basically you cannot have your employee work more than 10 hours a week overtime and cannot work in a day more than 12 hours ( i.e. 8 normal and 4 overtime or 9 normal and 3 overtime) limited to 10 hours for a week, this can be temporarily increased but only for 3 months and you have to wait a year before you can increase it again. (Section 10 of the Act)

Got to go. Will continue afterwards.
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I understand what you say and the inconvenience it is causing. But most domestics/gardeners are/were exploited and treated extremely unfair with very little to no rights. I do not have a problem with someone being treated fairly and as an employee. This does not go only for domestics and gardeners, but anyone. Graphic designers (as an example) has been exploited (and still are in many ways) and given slave wages for many years. I would like to see fairness. Why do "noone" see that as a problem?

But to get back to the focus on domestic and gardeners, these laws are needed so they can also be treated like other humans.

Again, I do not argue here the unfairness and incompetence in our legal system and the political agendas.
Also, the decision makers need to consider the impact these things have on our already extremely high unemployment rate as well.

And in terms of firing a gardener, domestic, mechanical engineer, mybb war veteran scientist .... they have given way too many people the right to abuse their employers and job opportunities, which does further harm to all industries.

So I guess it all depends how you look at it and in who's shoes you are.
 
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