Need a lawyer's advice

[Waaib]

Pls if you are a registered and practicing lawyer I need your input into this. This is very very important and all help is appreciated

For this I suspect you will need to pay an buy-in fee up front. .

From what I can see I have the following option.

I can open a Texas no limmit Holdem Tourney venue. At a fixed address, and have people play Live tournaments only. Meaning a Buy-in+re-buys or just Freeze out. Winner takes a set cash prize.

Entry fee covers the cost of the venue and overheads. But I offer a cash prize. All seems 100% legal does it not ?

The fact that they don't play with money on a "bring to the table and play", means they are not gambling but part taking in a tournament.

What you describe here is called a Casino and you can buy a license from the gambling commission. They will call it a "tender process" but you really just buy it in the end.

Most poker tournaments on TV operate as you describe above. You pay x dollars to play in the tournament. Your tournament fee buys you x amount of chips. You play with the chips till they are gone. The winner might end with 5 million chips but only win $100k. If you watch on TV the commentators usually talks about stacks (of chips) and not $'s. I think the tournaments are really just marketing for the real money earner i.e. the casino.

I like your idea though. Would the entry fee cover drinks and snacks etc? You mention operating costs - just checking what you're thinking you'll need to cover. I think also that the prize money would have to be available up front as opposed to being created by pooling the entry fees. That way if you are offering R50k prize, R500 to play for it and only two people sign up they still have an equal chance of winning the prize.

 

[blunomore]

All Lawyers do this, give me the fee's chargeable and the I'll decide. Don;t tell me you will give me advice and I need to pay for the consultation with out the rates

But so far I'm pretty sure I have all the legal angles covered with the above example.

OK ... if you wanna take life-altering legal advice from people on an internet forum, go ahead.

We will send you a chocolate cake with a file in it when you are in prison

 

[Waaib]

Thing is, I want to open a set venue with a bar.

Daily tournaments, with Big tournaments on the weekends, lets say a saturday afternoon. From what I can gather, as long as the house is not taking a cut from the pot it's legal.

Now if I have a Bar, with space for lets say 50 poker players, and I charge R 50 entry (Buy-in) when they enter and give out set cash prizes which is decided up front. Is this legal.

Lets say I put down R 2000 cash prize for the winner daily and charge R 100 "cover charge" for entry to my bar. Everyone in the bar is able to enter the tournament if they so choose. If not it's fine.

Legal or not ?

Will there be can-can dancers?

The only issue I see here would be how to deal with the quiet times when only one or two players are there during the week. It might result in running at a loss.

My gut says this is illegal but I'm not a doctor.

 

[Pitbull]

Will there be can-can dancers?

The only issue I see here would be how to deal with the quiet times when only one or two players are there during the week. It might result in running at a loss.

My gut says this is illegal but I'm not a doctor.

I have this feeling it should go big as soon as the word goes out. Start off slow and grow in numbers. The thing is, the bar will be the cash earner. Sure you will get players who come to play and only play the tourney with no alcohol what so ever. But you will get the social players also.

For this I would assume the business plan would be to starting of with small pots and grow them as the numbers increase. Thing is, if I want to do it the legal way I can not make a pot from the money generated. I will have to put the prize money up front. So if I say I have a tourney with a R 5000 cash prize I need to pay that no matter the number of entrants. This will make it legal.

This is a business gamble on my part. I can put op a Pot of R 2000 and have 50 players paying R 100 or just 2 players buying-in at R 100. That is business is it not ? But in time this tournaments should grow in numbers. Once it catches on. And the revenue will be mostly generated from the bar.

 

[blunomore]

I have this feeling it should go big as soon as the word goes out. Start off slow and grow in numbers. The thing is, the bar will be the cash earner. Sure you will get players who come to play and only play the tourney with no alcohol what so ever. But you will get the social players also.

For this I would assume the business plan would be to starting of with small pots and grow them as the numbers increase. Thing is, if I want to do it the legal way I can not make a pot from the money generated. I will have to put the prize money up front. So if I say I have a tourney with a R 5000 cash prize I need to pay that no matter the number of entrants. This will make it legal.

This is a business gamble on my part. I can put op a Pot of R 2000 and have 50 players paying R 100 or just 2 players buying-in at R 100. That is business is it not ? But in time this tournaments should grow in numbers. Once it catches on. And the revenue will be mostly generated from the bar.

Jokes aside Pitbull, I think there is more money to be made from mobile gambling (via your cellphone). That is where the future lies.

 

[Pitbull]

Jokes aside Pitbull, I think there is more money to be made from mobile gambling (via your cellphone). That is where the future lies.

True,

And now that you mention it. The same law would have to apply on this 35050 things where you SMS the amount of bottle caps and stand a chance to win R 15 000. Is this not the same thing as what I'm trying to do ?

Just asking as I think those adverts are a scam that is gripping the nation and I find nothing wrong with my idea above.

 

[Waaib]

Just comments:

I'm not sure you can or could prevent player from drinking. Is it a bar or is it a poker tournament? Poker is very boring to watch live. TV makes it much more interesting than it is live.

You could find a bar in a good location that is struggling and go into a deal with the owner. He gets some extra business you skip the bar setup costs. I reckon you should spend 90% of your budget on marketing and wing it for the rest.

 

[Pitbull]

Just comments:

I'm not sure you can or could prevent player from drinking. Is it a bar or is it a poker tournament? Poker is very boring to watch live. TV makes it much more interesting than it is live.

You could find a bar in a good location that is struggling and go into a deal with the owner. He gets some extra business you skip the bar setup costs. I reckon you should spend 90% of your budget on marketing and wing it for the rest.

...mmm... Something else to ponder on now Much appreciated

 

[LandyMan]

From what I can see I have the following option.

I can open a Texas no limmit Holdem Tourney venue. At a fixed address, and have people play Live tounaments only. Meaning a Buy-in+re-buys or just Freeze out. Winner takes a set cash prize.

Entry fee covers the cost of the venue and overheads. But I offer a cash prize. All seems 100% legal does it not ?

The fact that they don't play with money on a "bring to the table and play", means they are not gambling but part taking in a tournament.

I went to a Tourney with a *lawyer* friend of mine about two weeks ago. I specifically asked him about the legality of the tourney, based on the gambling act.

His response was that it is like a "tombola" at a church fair. You buy a "Ticket" (buy-in, re-buy, etc), and based on that ticket, you *might* win something

 

[LandyMan]

Just comments:

I'm not sure you can or could prevent player from drinking. Is it a bar or is it a poker tournament? Poker is very boring to watch live. TV makes it much more interesting than it is live.

You could find a bar in a good location that is struggling and go into a deal with the owner. He gets some extra business you skip the bar setup costs. I reckon you should spend 90% of your budget on marketing and wing it for the rest.

They can and they will hit you very hard with a fine for dealing in alcohol without a license ... normally they will give the drinks away during the tourney (like inviting mates over for a braai and you provide the drinks), but the waitress tips are then definitely more than what your 10% would have been.

 

[Pitbull]

I went to a Tourney with a *lawyer* friend of mine about two weeks ago. I specifically asked him about the legality of the tourney, based on the gambling act.

His response was that it is like a "tombola" at a church fair. You buy a "Ticket" (buy-in, re-buy, etc), and based on that ticket, you *might* win something

Interresting

Thanx Landyman.

I'm still in the structuring phase of my plan. Since you play. Would you part take in a monthly Tourney if there was one in your area ? There is other things in the pipeline like a South African ranking system for players and so forth.

 

[Velenoso]

Thing is, I want to open a set venue with a bar.

Daily tournaments, with Big tournaments on the weekends, lets say a saturday afternoon. From what I can gather, as long as the house is not taking a cut from the pot it's legal.

Now if I have a Bar, with space for lets say 50 poker players, and I charge R 50 entry (Buy-in) when they enter and give out set cash prizes which is decided up front. Is this legal.

Lets say I put down R 2000 cash prize for the winner daily and charge R 100 "cover charge" for entry to my bar. Everyone in the bar is able to enter the tournament if they so choose. If not it's fine.

Legal or not ?

That's perfectly legal. All you gotta say if anyone ever (which they wont) question you, is that you charge R100 entrance fee into your bar. You then offer a R2000 prize for anyone who wins the 'free' poker tournament you sometimes host there. Easy.