New probe into apartheid era plunder

joelus said:
For those who think there was no corruption during apartheid, that it is something only the ANC ever does and that if only we could get rid of the ANC corruption would end...
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It’s a matter of degree. Apartheid plunder is dwarfed by ANC plunder.
 
The_Assimilator said:
joelus, has anyone ever said there was no corruption during apartheid? The whole bloody edifice was corrupt... jobs for friends, jobs for life, jobs for people who were not qualified, etc.The issue we have with the ANC is that they claim to be the opposite of the Nats, yet they do the exact same things - BEE and tenderpreneurship to name two.

As for a church stealing money... I'd say I'm surprised, but it's a sad fact that the ones who claim to be the most pious are also the most corrupt.
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+1

the one other difference with the past and now is the freedom of the press, which will dissapear if this new media bill/proposal gets implemented.

Any state that controls the media can enjoy less corruption and an improved percieved popularity :D
 
“This does not only go back to [John] Vorster and [PW] Botha, but also involves the new elite. This is why it has not yet been properly investigated. The political will simply does not exist.”
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Why not quote this part?
Investigate and lock up the whole lot.
 
The_Assimilator said:
joelus, has anyone ever said there was no corruption during apartheid? The whole bloody edifice was corrupt... jobs for friends, jobs for life, jobs for people who were not qualified, etc. The issue we have with the ANC is that they claim to be the opposite of the Nats, yet they do the exact same things - BEE and tenderpreneurship to name two.

As for a church stealing money... I'd say I'm surprised, but it's a sad fact that the ones who claim to be the most pious are also the most corrupt.
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I'm not going to try find specific posts where people have said that but there is often a sentiment that money well managed during apartheid and then the corrupt ANC arrived and messed it all up...
But where you find power and money you will find corruption - whoever is in charge...
 
Mila said:
What will they do with them? Put them in parliament? Give them a golden handshake? A New Car? Cushy Government job?

These idiots cannot organise a piss up in a brewery. Who will run this? Who's idea was this? When I hear probe, initiative or any government investigation I hear tax money disappearing.
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It's the public protector who is launching a preliminary investigation. Based on a confidential report which was compiled by a British forensic investigation firm and handed to the South African government in 1999.
 
Kompete said:
+1

the one other difference with the past and now is the freedom of the press, which will dissapear if this new media bill/proposal gets implemented.

Any state that controls the media can enjoy less corruption and an improved percieved popularity :D
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The media was far more controlled and censored during apartheid than it is today.
The press had very little freedom in those days and editors were routinely arrested.
which is why people are comparing the proposed bill to apartheid style censorship laws.
 
VJB 449 said:
Why not quote this part?
Investigate and lock up the whole lot.
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I was trying to make the point that the apartheid government was as corrupt, if not more corrupt, than the present government. The corruption of today is well known and talked about on many threads here which is why I didn't highlight that part.
 
99% of politicians are corrupt...deal with it.

However; if my roads don't have potholes, if I don't have to put up with bull**** "load shedding", if I can go to a government hospital without fearing for my life, if my kids can have a proper matric education without the passmark being dumbed down to 30%...well, then and ONLY THEN do I not mind politicians being corrupt.

We, as South Africans, are not getting that. We're just getting the corruption. So, by all means, ANC, go and find another scapegoat to point the finger at. Too bad the rest of us learnt in primary school that pointing and saying "Johnny also did it", did not get us very far.
 
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Amos_Keeto said:
99% of politicians are corrupt...deal with it.

However; if my roads don't have potholes, if I don't have to put up with bull**** "load shedding", if I can go to a government hospital without fearing for my life, if my kids can have a proper matric education without the passmark being dumbed down to 30%...well, then and ONLY THEN do I not mind politicians being corrupt.

We, as South Africans, are not getting that. We're just getting the corruption. So, by all means, ANC, go and find another scapegoat to point the finger at. Too bad the rest of us learnt in primary school that pointing and saying "Johnny also did it", did not get us very far.
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True! I wouldn’t say “I do not mind politicians being corrupt” but it makes it easier to stomach.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the R3.2 bn to stop the bank concerned from imploding, and exactly what the US, UK, and European banks have been doing the last three years in order to save the banks (and in the process, the world economy) ?
 
Jola said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the R3.2 bn to stop the bank concerned from imploding, and exactly what the US, UK, and European banks have been doing the last three years in order to save the banks (and in the process, the world economy) ?
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According to the article this was a cover.
The payments were disguised as a lifeline, according the report, which also said that the local banking industry was "under the control of the Broederbond".

The then Heath Special Investigation Unit subsequently found in 1999 that the payments by the Reserve Bank to Bankorp/Absa, as well as similar payments to Sanlam, were illegal. This money was not, however, reclaimed, out of fear of damaging the banking industry.

Ciex’s investigation into the Reserve Bank and Bankorp/Absa led to even more revelations about alleged illegal transactions in which money was “moved” from the Treasury. These included similar payments to Nedbank, the former Trust Bank, fraud relating to large-scale government purchases, irregularities with regard to gold reserves and concealed offshore Reserve Bank assets.
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Amos_Keeto said:
99% of politicians are corrupt...deal with it.

However; if my roads don't have potholes, if I don't have to put up with bull**** "load shedding", if I can go to a government hospital without fearing for my life, if my kids can have a proper matric education without the passmark being dumbed down to 30%...well, then and ONLY THEN do I not mind politicians being corrupt.

We, as South Africans, are not getting that. We're just getting the corruption. So, by all means, ANC, go and find another scapegoat to point the finger at. Too bad the rest of us learnt in primary school that pointing and saying "Johnny also did it", did not get us very far.
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I think you're missing the point here. The ANC tried to ignore and squash this report, they are not the one's doing the finger pointing.
Ciex’s services were terminated on December 31 1998 and its reports ignored by former President Thabo Mbeki’s government.
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Some of the ANC led government are obviously involved as well.
“This does not only go back to [John] Vorster and [PW] Botha, but also involves the new elite. This is why it has not yet been properly investigated. The political will simply does not exist.”
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It's the public protector who is leading the investigation.
 
joelus said:
It's the public protector who is leading the investigation.
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If that is the case, then I shall concede the point on finger pointing. However, a lot of it still seems like somebody trying to hide behind the fact that there was corruption pre-94.
 
More info here:
http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/no-resources-to-probe-apartheid-plunder-1.1092474

The agency, Ciex, is headed by former British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) agent Michael Oatley, ....

In the report Oatley details allegations of how more than R26.1 billion was siphoned from public funds through illegal transactions.

While one such payment was investigated in the late 1990s – a R3.2 million payment to Bankorp, later one of the banks to form Amalgamated Banks of South Africa (Absa) – similar payments were not.

A commission of inquiry led by Judge Willem Heath found the payment to be irregular, but did not demand the bank or its investors repay the funds.

Ciex said the South African government could retrieve:

- R3.2bn from Absa

- R3bn to R6bn from Sanlam and Rembrandt, major investors in Bankorp.

Ciex said “up to R5.5bn” could be recovered from French aerospace manufacturer Aero-spatiale/Daimler-Chrysler.

The company says that in 1999 it was tasked by “the president” to investigate irregular payments by Armscor and it discovered that the state arms company siphoned R14,4bn through “Luxemborg accounts, managed through the Paris Embassy”.

Oatley and his team uncovered several other schemes including one in which US suppliers collaborated with government officials between 1987 and 1993 to defraud the government “by ordering large items of expensive equipment which were paid for but not delivered”.

Oatley was of the view that these and other moneys could be retrieved – and it had obtained legal opinion to that effect. He also suggested that Swiss, German and French banks who’d been sympathetic to the apartheid regime could be targeted.

Along with President Thabo Mbeki – who was deputy president at the time Oatley began his work – several other cabinet ministers are said to have known of the plan, including then finance minister Trevor Manuel and former labour minister Tito Mboweni.
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And this should make Mila happy:
Now Public Protector Madonsela says she cannot investigate because of resource constraints. Her spokesman Oupa Segalwe said the Public Protector Act gave Madonsela the discretion to decide whether or not to pursue a complaint “older than two years”.
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The Public Protector does not have the resources to investigate claims that billions of rands were looted from state coffers under the apartheid regime and that the government did nothing to retrieve the funds once it knew the extent of the plundering.
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The difference between the ANC and the Nats is the Nats and their associates could carry on without the worry of opposition parties and investigative journalists.
 
Originally Posted by Mila
What will they do with them? Put them in parliament? Give them a golden handshake? A New Car? Cushy Government job?
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Yes to all the above, if we are guided by the norms of the current day regime.
These idiots cannot organise a piss up in a brewery. Who will run this? Who's idea was this? When I hear probe, initiative or any government investigation I hear tax money disappearing.
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The idea obviously came from a consultant to one of the corrupt ANC cretins needing deflection.
 
Fudzy said:
The difference between the ANC and the Nats is the Nats and their associates could carry on without the worry of opposition parties and investigative journalists.
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Um no. They carry on regardless of how much attention they get from the media, and they aren't worried about opposition parties.
 
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