New The PC Build Thread

[Fulcrum29]

7800X3D gets as much benefit from 24H2 as Zen 5. So while there might be game specific advantages. The cache is still massive for some games.

A lot is being said about Zen 5's improved branch prediction. It does seem that this may make 3D V-Cache a bit redundant in some scenarios, but only time will tell. There are still oddities. Even Zen 4 wins over Zen 5 in some instances. The question is why is Windows only taking advantage now? Branch prediction is nothing new, and have long been integral. Not everyone is getting the same test outcomes. Sure Intel, who have long had the edge in branch prediction would also show improved results? It is possible that AMD may have exceeded them. At this point in time I consider 24H2 a work in progress.

There are some oddities with Linux too.

Something is up with interconnect at several layers in my view. At least these issues are now being tackled. The benchmarks will continue to move as optimisations are being made.

 

[animehero]

I'm just here waiting for a worldwide release of the 5500x3D
AM4 is still good for a few more years

 

[Lupus]

I'm just here waiting for a worldwide release of the 5500x3D
AM4 is still good for a few more years

That it is, I'm still running my 5600 though was thinking of getting a 5700x3d but is it worth the R1k more than the 5700x

 

[UrBaN963]

That it is, I'm still running my 5600 though was thinking of getting a 5700x3d but is it worth the R1k more than the 5700x

Yes. For gaming, any 3D version is worth the extra over the standard model, if you’re after performance. It’s a massive difference in general, though it is somewhat game-dependent. But in general, always grab the 3D version if you can.

 

[Lupus]

Yes. For gaming, any 3D version is worth the extra over the standard model, if you’re after performance. It’s a massive difference in general, though it is somewhat game-dependent. But in general, always grab the 3D version if you can.

Cool, will look at that, as currently the old 5600 can go to replace the 1600af in my sons machine, though he's barely used it since the Ally.

 

[tetrasect]

32GB of ram (crucial is descent, honestly ram timings has never bothered me much..and I've gamed for years.
Samsung 980 Pro NVME at least 1tb
Cheapest motherboard you can find, honestly it will be extinct in a year, these fancy boards are a waste, just make sure its got an nvme slot, as you dont want sata onboard.
About R5-10k on a graphics card, do consider in 2 years its extinct.
CPU its a bit of a tossup between ryzen and intel, for gaming ryzen is good, but well I am an intel fan. Honestly since the 6th generation till the 13th you will see only a 60% difference but the graphics card will be the biggie and the nvme for load times.

Do you have to buy a monitor or have one?

What games are you playing? I wouldnt buy a gaming laptop, the go extinct quick, however I do play on my HP Zbook with 32gb of ram and Samsung 980 Pro NVME, and a few other things. I would be tempted to get an Xbox or Ps5 instead for gaming and plug in a mouse or keyboard.

And get yourself a decent keyboard and mouse, as speed makes a lot of difference.

And get yourself a decent desk. I use the Secretlab Magnus Pro Desks at home. Works well

You're 3 months late.

 

[tetrasect]

A lot is being said about Zen 5's improved branch prediction. It does seem that this may make 3D V-Cache a bit redundant in some scenarios, but only time will tell. There are still oddities. Even Zen 4 wins over Zen 5 in some instances. The question is why is Windows only taking advantage now? Branch prediction is nothing new, and have long been integral. Not everyone is getting the same test outcomes. Sure Intel, who have long had the edge in branch prediction would also show improved results? It is possible that AMD may have exceeded them. At this point in time I consider 24H2 a work in progress.

Maybe we'll see a lawsuit. Intel is being hammered with them for their anti-competitive behavior. So is Microsoft. So it's within the realm of possibility that they colluded.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Maybe we'll see a lawsuit. Intel is being hammered with them for their anti-competitive behavior. So is Microsoft. So it's within the realm of possibility that they colluded.

Intel dug their own hole. In my opinion, I am not in the mind that MS and Intel colluded to handicap AMD. Last night I spent some time looking at both Intel and AMD architecturally, going by what the experts conclude. I am not going into all articles, but this one on Zen 5, published on August 20th is an interesting read:

Zen 5 Variants and More, Clock for Clock

Zen 5 is AMD’s newest core architecture.

chipsandcheese.com

To make a snip:

Despite Zen 5’s impressive prediction accuracy, the core still sees 8.9 branch MPKI. Zen 4 is a bit worse off at 9.3 MPKI. I suspect that’s part of why Zen 5 failed to pull a significant clock for clock lead in 7-Zip compression. 7-Zip is sensitive to cache and memory latency, as we saw with mobile Zen 5 falling well behind desktop Zen 5 and Zen 4. Out-of-order execution engines can mitigate latency by keeping more instructions in flight ahead of a long latency load from memory. But that reordering capacity gets wasted if fetched instructions keep getting flushed out due to branch mispredicts. Therefore, Zen 5 can’t make the most of its increased reordering capacity, and cores with better memory subsystems (like Zen 4 with VCache) win out.

It is a small example, and there are other articles having an in-depth look into Intel. From what I can read by having a look at the situation, Windows is invalidating instructions it should not invalidate. This has nothing to do with collusion, but more to do with Windows aggressively mitigating risks/security vulnerabilities. The instruction sets also play a crucial role in this. AMD and Windows will have to work together to optimise. I can be very wrong. Intel and AMD will also handle branch prediction in their own respect, Intel is also likely involved in this process to get this sorted.

CPUs have long been suppressed with security updates, whether it is through a microcode layer or an OS layer, or any other layer.

There are some other oddities, and some are showing on Linux.

I remain in the view that AMD released Zen 5 too early. They should have waited until the AM5 800 series were ready, some with better memory support, and with new module standards releasing. I think AMD is holding back the 800 series which I think could be due to the current issue, but they still went to market early so... eh.

All I am is an observer with an interest in electronics.

 

[Exaelea]

./snip

I remain in the view that AMD released Zen 5 too early.

True, but if they didnt, we would have had to wait till next year for them to discover the Windows bug that affects older ryzen cpu's too.

 

[Fulcrum29]

True, but if they didnt, we would have had to wait till next year for them to discover the Windows bug that affects older ryzen cpu's too.

It is not a bug, it is called a bug, but it isn't a bug nor a ghost in the system. It is handling.

Beside, the AM5 800 series was initially slated to be released in August, then in September, and now in October. It is a little over a month to go.

When you look at AMD's own statement, they did their benches with elevated Admin privileges. Though this is by design, AMD stated in their own blog post:

Ryzen 9000 Series Community Update: Gaming Performance

The new “Zen 5” architecture first introduced in high end laptops earlier this summer is now available in a full stack of desktop processors with the AMD Ryzen 9000 Series. And while “Zen 5” is delivering leadership performance across content creation, productivity and AI applications, we’ve...

community.amd.com

• The “Zen 5” architecture incorporates a wider branch prediction capacity than prior “Zen” generations. Our automated test methodology was run in “Admin” mode which produced results that reflect branch prediction code optimizations not present in the version of Windows reviewers used to test Ryzen 9000 Series. We have a further update on accessing this performance for users below.

They knew about this 'bug' all right.

The only positive here is:

Everyone with a newer architecture than Skylake and Zen 2 should get an 'upgrade' when you look at how the current situation is being evaluated. Perhaps older architectures could also receive a slight 'upgrade', but I doubt that their microcodes are still in supported and active development branches. EoL happens.

 

[greg_SA]

Hi,

Can anyone recommend a 24" IPS 1080p monitor, with at least 144 Hz refresh rate? My son plays mostly FPS games (Valorant and Fortnite), and would like to upgrade his current 60 Hz monitor.

Seem like lots of options out there, but most have mixed reviews.

Or should we bite the bullet and go for 27" 1440p - will mean a new GFX card though. and not sure if the extra resolution is a good or bad idea for FPS gaming?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Neoprod]

For the Hardware Unboxed video (worth a watch):

sigh...guess I gotta look into this at some point. I assume there's a debloater out and about?

 

[Neoprod]

Hi,

Can anyone recommend a 24" IPS 1080p monitor, with at least 144 Hz refresh rate? My son plays mostly FPS games (Valorant and Fortnite), and would like to upgrade his current 60 Hz monitor.

Seem like lots of options out there, but most have mixed reviews.

Or should we bite the bullet and go for 27" 1440p - will mean a new GFX card though. and not sure if the extra resolution is a good or bad idea for FPS gaming?

Thanks,
Greg

I've only read good things about the Koorui 1080p VA monitor - seems to be the popular budget option for gamers. I'd look into that one.

https://www.amazon.com/KOORUI-Computer-Compatible-DisplayPort-Adjustable/product-reviews/B0BNDZWC3L

Available locally.

 

[Fulcrum29]

View attachment 1753504

sigh...guess I gotta look into this at some point. I assume there's a debloater out and about?

Teething issues. At least most newer system owners will have a better experience. I can only assume that it is all the CPU, mostly Intel, vulnerabilities which were patched over time. Many such CPUs aren't supported any more, user discretion advised. Most such vulnerabilities need rootkit anyway, so don't install hacks kids.

It is also alleged by a person that AMD will patch the latency 'bug' in a new BIOS update. /Cough AM5 800 series.

All in all, PC gaming will soon be in a better place.

Anyhow, some people who benchmark are still getting dissimilar results, either it is system dependent or FUD.

 

[Soul Assassin]

Hi,

Can anyone recommend a 24" IPS 1080p monitor, with at least 144 Hz refresh rate? My son plays mostly FPS games (Valorant and Fortnite), and would like to upgrade his current 60 Hz monitor.

Seem like lots of options out there, but most have mixed reviews.

Or should we bite the bullet and go for 27" 1440p - will mean a new GFX card though. and not sure if the extra resolution is a good or bad idea for FPS gaming?

Thanks,
Greg

For the price it's really hard not to recommend something like this:

WootVision WV27QHDPT-180HZ 27" WQHD(2560x1440) 180Hz 1ms IPS AMD FreeSync Gaming Monitor

Buy WootVision WV27QHDPT-180HZ 27" WQHD(2560x1440) 180Hz 1ms IPS AMD FreeSync Gaming Monitor at Wootware with fast shipping & superb service.

www.wootware.co.za

 

[Fulcrum29]

For those with 13th and 14th gen Intel CPUs and Asus motherboards:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1828219457879388356

1/2 - Important for our Intel 13th & 14th Gen desktop CPU users: Final BIOS' to protect your CPU from instability now available from ASUS. We recommend everyone download theirs ASAP. New microcode limits unsafe CPU core voltage. ASUS has complied with Intel's requested defaults.

2/2 - These BIOS' also fix undervolting via loadlines that caused instability on some CPUs.

 

[Fulcrum29]

For Windows 23H2 users:

AMD Branch Prediction Optimization For Ryzen 9000 "Zen 5" & Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" CPUs Now Available In Windows 11 23H2

AMD's branch prediction optimizations for Ryzen 9000 & Ryzen 7000 CPUs are now available in Windows 11 23H2 to improve gaming performance.

wccftech.com

AMD Branch Prediction Optimization For Ryzen 9000 “Zen 5” & Ryzen 7000 “Zen 4” CPUs Now Available In Windows 11 23H2​

...

We wanted to let you know that the branch prediction optimization found in Windows 11 24H2 has now been backported to Windows 11 23H2. Users will need to look for KB5041587 under Windows update > Advanced options > Optional updates. We expect the performance uplift to be very similar between 24H2 and 23H2 with KB5041587 installed.

AMD Rep To Wccftech

For notice:

KB5027397: Feature update to Windows 11, version 23H2 by using an enablement package - Microsoft Support

support.microsoft.com

Summary​

Windows 11, versions 22H2 and 23H2 share a common core operating system with an identical set of system files. Therefore, the new features in Windows 11, version 23H2 are included in the latest monthly quality update for Windows 11, version 22H2 but are in an inactive and dormant state. These new features will remain dormant until they are turned on through the “enablement package,” a small, quick-to-install “master switch” that activates the Windows 11, version 23H2 features.

The enablement package is a great option for installing a scoped feature update like Windows 11, version 23H2 as it enables an update from version 22H2 to version 23H2 with a single restart, reducing update downtime. This enables devices to take advantage of new features now. For version 22H2 devices that receive updates directly from Windows Update or Windows Server Updates Services (WSUS), devices automatically get the enablement package by installing the feature update to Windows 11, version 23H2.

This update should be available to 22H2 users too. Those with older CPUs, don't expect miracles.

 

[greg_SA]

For the price it's really hard not to recommend something like this:

WootVision WV27QHDPT-180HZ 27" WQHD(2560x1440) 180Hz 1ms IPS AMD FreeSync Gaming Monitor

Buy WootVision WV27QHDPT-180HZ 27" WQHD(2560x1440) 180Hz 1ms IPS AMD FreeSync Gaming Monitor at Wootware with fast shipping & superb service.

www.wootware.co.za

Thanks. Yes, have my eye on that for sure.

Only down side is that I'll have to probably upgrade the GFX card. His PC has an old RX570!

Also, from what I have been reading, most competitive FPS players still use 1080p. Not sure why...

 

[Soul Assassin]

Thanks. Yes, have my eye on that for sure.

Only down side is that I'll have to probably upgrade the GFX card. His PC has an old RX570!

Also, from what I have been reading, most competitive FPS players still use 1080p. Not sure why...

Okay, it's a bit harder to recommend a 1440P monitor for an RX570.

Keep in mind most competitive FPS games will be mostly CPU bound as well especially something like Valorant that runs on a smart fridge, he could have a 4090 in his current PC and his FPS would barely go up.

You're staring at a whole system upgrade down the road at some point.

 

[tetrasect]

Thanks. Yes, have my eye on that for sure.

Only down side is that I'll have to probably upgrade the GFX card. His PC has an old RX570!

Also, from what I have been reading, most competitive FPS players still use 1080p. Not sure why...

Just use DLSS.

Using DLSS "quality" setting on a 1440p monitor looks better than native 1080p while running at essentially the same frame rate.

Then you can buy a new GPU at a later time without also having to buy another new monitor.