Nikon tax?

Rugged? I wonder how high up the Canon/Nikon price ladder you have to go to be able to do this?

http://youtu.be/cia2dRP9cww

Why is price being brought into the equation when we're talking about absolutes?

This is probably the most hardcore realistic test I could find, he's using his Pentax DSLRs in sandstorms in Afghanistan.

[video=youtube;Eo61t5fH6Qw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo61t5fH6Qw[/video]
 
And silly or not, this is the most extreme test I could find for anything.

[video=youtube;RCT-YMgjm9k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCT-YMgjm9k[/video]
 
Never said you shouldn't enjoy your DSLRs. What I am saying is that you should stop perpetuating inaccuracies regarding mirrorless cameras. Because so far all you have written about them is inaccurate.
 
I think I read this all just fine. You haven't looked into the right mirrorless systems if you believe what you wrote above is true.

I also found the EFV to be laggy and blurry when panning in very low light.

I said I found it to be, not I read that it is. I looked at everything Orms was able to demo to me. Everything under R 8,000 was bad - there were no exceptions.
 
Never said you shouldn't enjoy your DSLRs. What I am saying is that you should stop perpetuating inaccuracies regarding mirrorless cameras. Because so far all you have written about them is inaccurate.

You said that DSLRs have absolutely no use, which is not correct. If you can show me something that can meet all the specs I mentioned on the previous page I'm sure the likes of Getty Images would gladly spend less going mirrorless when they next replace a camera :D

FWIW, the time between an image being captured at the Winter Olympics and editing complete was under two minutes (I'll edit in a source when I find it again, it's in my history somewhere). Taking ten seconds to replace a battery in such conditions is unacceptable.

Here's my first edit:

There was an Ethernet cable that connected into the camera that would immediately send the photos back to the editor in the press room so that he could send it out as fast as possible. If everything went well, from the time I took the photo to the time it was available for use, the time elapsed would be roughly one minute and twenty seconds. I spent the rest of that day getting used to the camera and the speed of the horses crossing the finish line.

Source

I'm not arguing that mirrorless is not good, I'm not even going to argue that it might not be the pro camera of the future. What I am saying is that DSLRs DO still have uses that mirrorless cameras can't equal.
 
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I have more than 20 lenses that meter and auto focus on this camera. There are about 30 more current lenses I could chose from.

I can shoot this camera at ISO 12800 happily.

I can shoot this camera at 10 frames per second.

I can see in the dark with this camera when those using OVF's can't.

I can compose images at ground level with this camera without having to get on the ground myself.

I can also compose images with the camera above my head.

I can leave the camera on a tripod in another room and see what it sees on my iPhone, then take the photo.

I can send the photos I just took from the camera to Twitter or Facebook or an email address without needing an ethernet cable.

I can view the image I just took in my EVF while outdoors in the blazing sun.

I can use my finger to select an AF point and/or release the shutter all over the screen.

I can use the camera in any weather conditions, including monsoon like conditions that will kill most other cameras.

I can see what my exposure is going to be and how I should compensate before I have even taken a shot.

I can mount any lens from any manufacturer with an adapter on this camera and get accurate metering and decent focus with peaking (imagine a 400/2.8 with a 2x TC on this as being the same as 1600/5.6).


How many boxes did your 1DX/D4s tick in this little list?
 
How many boxes did your 1DX/D4s tick in this little list?

Most and more. Usable images at ISO 12,800 with at least another stop to spare (BTW are you lookng at SOOC raw or JPEG with noise reduction applied in camera?), 14 FPS (+40%), can't see in the dark so I'll give you that, most of what remains can be done via Wi-Fi and the exposure can be seen before taking the shot on any camera that includes live view. The D4s has 4.5x the ISO performance of the EM-1, so if you're happy with its ISO 12,800 performance you'd probably be OK with somewhere around ISO 55,000 on the D4s.

Again, a mirrorless camera is not a replacement for everyone.
 
How many boxes did your 1DX/D4s tick in this little list?
Most of them and the important ones like FPS and ISO were exceeded.

What do you have in your lens line up that will give me the same shallow DOF that my 50mm f/1.4 will?
 
EVF technology is way, way better now than it was even 18 months ago.
Sounds like a good argument to hold off jumping then.

In the E-M1 there is no lag and there is no blackout when shooting at 10fps either.
These cameras are coming along nicely, although the E-M1 looks like it might still be on the small side.

Of course one has to know how to set up the camera, which is something most amateur "reviewers" on the net couldn't be bothered with, so they write a product up as being incapable of doing something when in fact it is more than capable.
So you claim, but then the ones I've seen these supposedly incompetent amateurs are merely saying that DSLR works for them, where the mirrorless camera did not.

The EVF on the Fuji XT-1 is brilliant, even better than the Olympus one. I have not used the Sony's but I am sure that they are probably also pretty good.
I'm glad those cameras are getting a lot better, but I'd need a really compelling reason to switch and so far no mirrorless camera I've seen offers those reasons.
 
I will soon have my new Nikon D7100 in my hands at the bargain price of R8076 - a worthy replacement for my D90. Contemplated the mirrorless option - played with one and decided it's just not for me.. Couldn't be arsed about the D-SLR weight disadvantages et al to mitigate against my decision. I made the correct choice for me.
 
Most of them and the important ones like FPS and ISO were exceeded.

What do you have in your lens line up that will give me the same shallow DOF that my 50mm f/1.4 will?

I had a 50mm f/1.4 lens in Nikon mount. And Canon mount. Worst lenses I have ever owned. You cannot shoot them at f/1.4 and get a sharp image because optically they are rubbish. Same goes for most of the ultra fast glass for 135 system. It only gets sharp when you stop it down mainly because of the lack of depth of field.

Conversely all the f/1.8 Olympus glass I have is sharp at f/1.8 and doesn't get any sharper when stopped down because the glass was designed with the smaller image circle in mind. Since I went to the E-M1 from Nikon I do not sharpen any images at all.

Where 135 system users go wrong is thinking that shallow depth of field is a good thing. It very seldom is, especially when using the unreliable phase detect systems of DSLR's. So unless you spend an inordinate amount of time and effort calibrating your AF sensors for your fast glass when shooting it wide open, you're not going to have all that many very sharp images at short focus distances.

There's a school of thought that you lose about 2 stops of depth of field when shooting micro four thirds. I think it's about 1 stop, maybe 1.6 at most. Go and take a look at this site if you want some real world examples of what can be done with depth of field and high ISO on the supposedly unworkable MFT system: http://robinwong.blogspot.com/2014/11/about-high-iso-shooting-with-olympus.html

But if you absolutely must have shallower depth of field there are the Voigtlander f/0.95 series lenses you can buy. I think there are about three of these at present. There are also other makers pushing out sub-1.0 aperture lenses for the system, especially for video use.

Coming out next year is the Olympus 300mm f/4 PRO lens which is about the size of the new 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO. I think that lens will have many sports photographers asking questions about their big rigs. Especially those who have to travel for events.

Micro four thirds is a very serious system. It shouldn't be underestimated.
 
I had a 50mm f/1.4 lens in Nikon mount. And Canon mount. Worst lenses I have ever owned. You cannot shoot them at f/1.4 and get a sharp image because optically they are rubbish. Same goes for most of the ultra fast glass for 135 system. It only gets sharp when you stop it down mainly because of the lack of depth of field.

Conversely all the f/1.8 Olympus glass I have is sharp at f/1.8 and doesn't get any sharper when stopped down because the glass was designed with the smaller image circle in mind. Since I went to the E-M1 from Nikon I do not sharpen any images at all.

Where 135 system users go wrong is thinking that shallow depth of field is a good thing. It very seldom is, especially when using the unreliable phase detect systems of DSLR's. So unless you spend an inordinate amount of time and effort calibrating your AF sensors for your fast glass when shooting it wide open, you're not going to have all that many very sharp images at short focus distances.

There's a school of thought that you lose about 2 stops of depth of field when shooting micro four thirds. I think it's about 1 stop, maybe 1.6 at most. Go and take a look at this site if you want some real world examples of what can be done with depth of field and high ISO on the supposedly unworkable MFT system: http://robinwong.blogspot.com/2014/11/about-high-iso-shooting-with-olympus.html

But if you absolutely must have shallower depth of field there are the Voigtlander f/0.95 series lenses you can buy. I think there are about three of these at present. There are also other makers pushing out sub-1.0 aperture lenses for the system, especially for video use.

Coming out next year is the Olympus 300mm f/4 PRO lens which is about the size of the new 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO. I think that lens will have many sports photographers asking questions about their big rigs. Especially those who have to travel for events.

Micro four thirds is a very serious system. It shouldn't be underestimated.
There isn't a 25mm f/0.7 lens that would give me the equivalent DOF as a wide open 50mm f/1.4.

As far as I can tell, when it comes to DOF, there also aren't any substitutes for my 70-200 f/2.8 (which Cambridge in Colour says would be a 35-100 f/1.4) or my 400mm f/2.8 (200mm f/1.4). That might not be important to you but it is to me.

Now, maybe in a perfect world I'd have both systems, I can't say for sure. But I can say that 4/3 isn't going to be my only system. Adding a high end APS-C, like the 7Dmk2, to my system is a lot more appealing.
 
I will soon have my new Nikon D7100 in my hands at the bargain price of R8076 - a worthy replacement for my D90. Contemplated the mirrorless option - played with one and decided it's just not for me.. Couldn't be arsed about the D-SLR weight disadvantages et al to mitigate against my decision. I made the correct choice for me.

Hi, Where are you getting your D7100 from ? would love to get one at that price.
 
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I had a 50mm f/1.4 lens in Nikon mount. And Canon mount. Worst lenses I have ever owned. You cannot shoot them at f/1.4 and get a sharp image because optically they are rubbish. Same goes for most of the ultra fast glass for 135 system. It only gets sharp when you stop it down mainly because of the lack of depth of field.

To be fair, you have to compare your Olympus f/1.8 wide open to a more modern lens, such as the Sigma Art 35 mm f/1.5 or the Sigma Art 50 mm f/1.4, or maybe even the Zeiss Otus 55 mm f/1.4. These lenses perform much better wide open than those older Nikon / Canon 50 mm f/1.4 lenses.

Modern lens design (probably the use of aspherical elements) has led to much better sharpness wide open.

But, as bwana mentioned, f/1.8 on m4/3 is does not produce the same DOF as f/1.8 on a 36x24 mm sensor, so you are not really comparing apples to apples.
 
To be fair, you have to compare your Olympus f/1.8 wide open to a more modern lens, such as the Sigma Art 35 mm f/1.5 or the Sigma Art 50 mm f/1.4, or maybe even the Zeiss Otus 55 mm f/1.4. These lenses perform much better wide open than those older Nikon / Canon 50 mm f/1.4 lenses.

Modern lens design (probably the use of aspherical elements) has led to much better sharpness wide open.

But, as bwana mentioned, f/1.8 on m4/3 is does not produce the same DOF as f/1.8 on a 36x24 mm sensor, so you are not really comparing apples to apples.

I don't think you're hearing me. Shooting a 50/1.4 on 135 system at max aperture is not going to give you an optimum result for the reasons I have explained. Just prior to making the switch to Oympus I did use the Sigma 35/1.4 and yes, it is a very good lens, but it is still not as sharp wide open as it is when stopped down. Especially when using unreliable phase detect auto focus on a DSLR. So in practical terms you need to stop it down to at least f/2.8 which more or less gives you the same depth of field that you would get from an Olympus 17mm f/1.8 lens. However, the Olympus lens is immediately sharp at f/1.8, so not only are you getting shallow depth of field, but you are also allowing enough light into your camera to get a shutter speed that ensures a sharp image. In practise this is much more useful than having bragging rights to a larger sensor with shallower depth of field.

I realise that not all will be convinced. All I am trying to do is get people who don't have any real experience with a fully fleshed mirrorless system to stop perpetuating inaccuracies about these systems and to not use meaningless comparisons (like depth of field) to illustrate a point.

@bwana: did you know that there is an Olympus 35-100mm f/2.0 zoom lens? Yes, it's f/2.0, not f/2.8 and it is probably one of the sharpest lenses ever made. Check it out.

404517.jpg
 
I don't think you're hearing me. Shooting a 50/1.4 on 135 system at max aperture is not going to give you an optimum result for the reasons I have explained. Just prior to making the switch to Oympus I did use the Sigma 35/1.4 and yes, it is a very good lens, but it is still not as sharp wide open as it is when stopped down. Especially when using unreliable phase detect auto focus on a DSLR. So in practical terms you need to stop it down to at least f/2.8 which more or less gives you the same depth of field that you would get from an Olympus 17mm f/1.8 lens. However, the Olympus lens is immediately sharp at f/1.8, so not only are you getting shallow depth of field, but you are also allowing enough light into your camera to get a shutter speed that ensures a sharp image. In practise this is much more useful than having bragging rights to a larger sensor with shallower depth of field.

I think you are neglecting to mention one very important detail. Using a smaller sensor with an f/1.8 lens is not going to give you a better signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) than a 36x24 mm sensor at f/2.8.

With modern sensors (say, comparing an OLYMPUS OM-D E-M1 to a D810) with low read-out noise, your SNR is mostly limited by photon shot noise. Photon shot noise scales directly proportional to sensor size, since we can assume that for a constant amount of incoming light, the larger sensor will capture more photons per unit time. Comparing apples to apples requires that we compare the resulting SNR at the same display size for both sensor sizes, i.e., we rescale both images to, say, 8 MP. The net effect is that each pixel in the 8 MP image coming from the 36x24 mm sensor is the average of incoming photons over an area that is 4x greater than the corresponding sensor area coming from the m4/3 sensor (18x13.5 mm assumed). This averaging improves the SNR.

In terms of exposure, this means that given identical sensor technology, you can decrease your exposure by two stops on the D810 and still obtain the same SNR as the E-M1. You can check the DxOMark SNR values yourself. For example, E-M1 at ISO 200 yields SNR of 37.4 dB, and D810 at ISO 800 yields an SNR of 36.8 (yes, I know 0.6 dB is actually a fairly large difference, but it is impressively close given all the variables in the comparison).

So if your Sigma 35 mm f/1.4 is stopped down to f/2.8 on a D810, you will still have less DOF and you will be able to use double the shutter speed while maintaining the same SNR. (This example is just to tie in with your settings quoted above)

Using VWDOF we can calculate that the roughly equivalent DOF will be attained when we compare the m4/3 at f/1.8 to the 36x24 mm camera at f/4 at a focusing distance of 1.8 m. Since f/4 is roughly 2 stops above f/1.8, we can use ISO 800 on the D810 to keep the shutter speed the same as the E-M1 @ f/1.8.

To summarise: you cannot work around the physical limitations imposed by photon shot noise. The upshot is that given equivalent sensor tech, the SNR of m4/3 at f/1.8 ISO 200 will be virtually identical to that of a D810 system at f/4 ISO 800, with both at the same shutter speed, and the same DOF.

There are many ways in which to skew this comparison, e.g., comparing images from both cameras at 100% size on a monitor, but the reality is that the same result can be obtained with either system.

What the m4/3 system cannot do is obtain a shallower DOF; whether that is desirable is a matter of taste. Yes, it is harder to obtain accurate focus at such shallow DOFs, but with careful AF adjustment you can obtain accurate results. Also, we have not really specified what type of photography is involved --- if the subject is static, then DSLRs offer a passable contrast detection AF option (but yes, it is not as responsive as the AF systems in mirrorless systems).

But please do not take my contribution to this thread as an attack on mirrorless systems in general. Given enough time, the mirrorless systems will match DSLRs in the remaining categories (dynamic focus performance), low EVF lag, etc. The reality is that very few people actively use their DSLRs in settings that require the sophisticated tracking AF offered by top-end DSLRs like the 1Dx or D4s.

I just wanted to point out that in order for the discussion to progress, the comparisons between systems must be made in a fair way.
 
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You know, all the science in the world will not be able to convince me that moving from Nikon's FX system to Micro Four Thirds was a mistake. Especially where DxO and all that measurebating stuff is concerned. I have gained so much more from the smaller systems than I ever gave up that scientific comparisons don't even come into it. It's like playing trump cards with a pack of Jokers when you look at this stuff at a non-pixel level.

In reality, when EXIF is removed you will not be able to tell the difference between a shot taken with an OM-D and one taken with a Nikon D810 when shown on the web, which is where 99.999% of the world's images are presented. And even when you print something you're going to need a loupe to notice a difference.

That's not what I'm looking for in photography. I want lighter, better, cheaper. Olympus gave me all three compared to where I was with Nikon. If Fujifilm had had a better lens range and the X-T1 had existed at the time I decided to make the switch I might have gone there, but I'm actually glad I didn't because Olympus is just totally nailing it with everything they bring out.
 
By saying it's not what YOU'RE looking for you've just made your point of view subjective but you're trying to argue objectively. You still haven't shown me a mirrorless option given ALL of the specifications I mentioned a few pages back, which to some could be the difference between getting paid and walking away empty handed.
 
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