No spanking at home

[Fudzy]

Hey! It's my house, I'll spank my monkey wherever I want to

 

[BobbyMac]

Hey! It's my house, I'll spank my monkey wherever I want to

Careful. They may catch you on Google Earth.

 

[noxibox]

I hate it when ppl use oversimplification as an argument. It just sounds ridiculous. Obviously serial killers are ppl with problems that run deeper than just an undisciplined upbringing. We're talking here about brats who own their parents.

Somebody brought up the axe murder and children stabbing each other with scissors. I don't know who that could have been.

we've already got 8yr olds chopping each other up with axes and school kids killing each other with scissors.

Spoilt brats need to be taught a lesson or we'll be breeding tyrants and dictators.

Yea, when the child is not disciplined, we get bullies and tyrants...

Have you ever tried explaining to a 3 year old boy why it is wrong to moer their friends with a cricket bat?

What is the cut-off age? When is a child old enough to understand?

Furthermore, I will smack any kid who acts disrespectfull or out of hand in public place.

Please do try that with my children. I'd say they should treat such an occurence as an assault and retaliate accordingly. Since you'd be quite a lot bigger them the use of deadly weapons would most likely be appropriate.

I once smacked an unruly teenager on a London bus who was spitting at people. Not one local did a thing about it. When I sorted him out with a swift flattie to the side of his ear, you should have seen the looks! But it worked and I think they secrectly wished they had the guts to do it.

Wimps, they should have cracked you one.

 

[Freshy-ZN]

All these New age Parenting types keep refering to smacking kids as violence. What crud. Sure there are some people who beat their kids black and blue but I promise, no legislation is going to stop them.

Smacking (not beating up) kids is sometimes necessary. Full stop. The end result of countries who have this kind of legislation is an army of out of control kids who know no boundaries and do not understand the concept of actions and consequences.

All of us who got a well deserved smack or ten when we were kids have no hard feelings towards our parents. We know we got what we deserved. How then do you guys claim it is abuse or violence which leaves permanent psychological scarring??

 

[Freshy-ZN]

Please do try that with my children. I'd say they should treat such an occurence as an assault and retaliate accordingly. Since you'd be quite a lot bigger them the use of deadly weapons would most likely be appropriate.

Im talking about things like spitting on people, bumping into old people, sticking bubblegum where people will get it on their clothes. Shoplifting, scratching cars and my pet hate: Graffitti and vandalisam. I promise if I saw your kid doing anyone of those he wouldnt be able to sit for a while. If you made an issue out of it I would understand why your child did it in the first place.

Wimps, they should have cracked you one.

No, they take advantage of this bleeding heart Liberal type of legislation and think that noone will confront them on their civil disobedience. When someone does they run away crying.

 

[noxibox]

And i have seen the comparison at get togethers, the children of the parents who spank their children, are well behaved and well mannered, while the "new age, dr spock" children are running around like hooligans with the mothers pretty soon in almost the same agitated state

And what of all the misbehaved children I see where the parents hit them and hit them, but to no avail?

while the "new age, dr spock" children are running around like hooligans

Did he say throw out discipline? Is that what these parents did? How well-behaved are the children whose parents hit them really? I've known quite a few little monsters who act like sunshine in front of their parents, but are pure evil when their parents are not looking. And they're all phenomenally skilled liars.

There is no evidence that proves that physically punishing your child my corrupt him. Going to excess in any of the schools is the problem.

In the thread on circumcision there were claims that the pain caused brain damage. I don't know who brought it up or if it is true.

There has been evidence that physical punishment does not instill genuinely good behaviour. There has been evidence that it trains children in lying and deviousness.

Disregarding whether or not hitting kids is right/justified or not for a moment, I think its too simplistic to say that this is the only difference between people that are brought up well and those who run wild, it seems like a lot of parents apologise and accept their child's behaviour these days and then expect the rest of the world to do the same, that has nothing to do with whether or not they hit them.

This is an important question. Physical punishment was for most of our history the first and last resort. Discipline was equated with hitting the child. Almost every person in favour does equate the two. From what I have seen when society decided to stop using beatings as a form of discipline they simply decided to have no discpline at all. Hitting was easy and gives the appearance of being highly effective, so no further thought was required.

Look at the posts where it is essentially stated that if you can't spank a child you have to let them run wild.

One can always use the "go to your room , NOW" line.
But the kid will just refuse knowing there's nothing you can do. This does not work in the UK, it won't work here either.

Incredibly I am larger than a child allowing me to perform incredible feats like simply picking them up and putting them in their room.

The UK kids are the most unruly even their teachers don't want to teach them. A friend of mine teaching in the UK got a 'hot klap' from a high school pupil and had to run out of the classroom...

Once again you're referring to the syndrome where everyone decided that not hitting children meant there must be no discipline. This is exactly what happened. I am sure all the ineffectual teachers who struggled to control their classrooms despite regularly sending pupils to be caned are struggling at least as much now, while the quality teachers who managed to control their classrooms without even threatening to send pupils for caning and never did resort to such measures are having no problems.

 

[noxibox]

I promise if I saw your kid doing anyone of those he wouldnt be able to sit for a while. If you made an issue out of it I would understand why your child did it in the first place.

I think in such circumstances sitting would be the least of your worries. Nobody hits my children. Anyone who did would be treated like any common assailant. If I catch someone hitting my child I am not going to stop to ask questions or find out the circumstances. They can explain later from their hospital bed.

 

[Alan]

All these New age Parenting types keep refering to smacking kids as violence. What crud. Sure there are some people who beat their kids black and blue but I promise, no legislation is going to stop them.

Smacking (not beating up) kids is sometimes necessary. Full stop. The end result of countries who have this kind of legislation is an army of out of control kids who know no boundaries and do not understand the concept of actions and consequences.

All of us who got a well deserved smack or ten when we were kids have no hard feelings towards our parents. We know we got what we deserved. How then do you guys claim it is abuse or violence which leaves permanent psychological scarring??

I agree

Im talking about things like spitting on people, bumping into old people, sticking bubblegum where people will get it on their clothes. Shoplifting, scratching cars and my pet hate: Graffitti and vandalisam. I promise if I saw your kid doing anyone of those he wouldnt be able to sit for a while. If you made an issue out of it I would understand why your child did it in the first place.

Well if a kid misbehaves around my family and I to a point where after a verbal warning and an attempt to locate his/her parents then I will give him/her a smack. Obviously the child has no respect or discipline and I won't tolerate that. If my child behaved that way around another person and got a smack for it then fine by me. Most likely he/she won't behave like that because they would know that kind of behavior would result in a smack.

If the child’s parent has a problem with me smacking their unruly brood that they can't control that is his problem.

He is welcome to attempt smacking me. By then I guess I'd be real so I wouldn't mind giving him a smack as well

No, they take advantage of this bleeding heart Liberal type of legislation and think that noone will confront them on their civil disobedience. When someone does they run away crying.

 

[Alan]

I think in such circumstances sitting would be the least of your worries. Nobody hits my children. Anyone who did would be treated like any common assailant. If I catch someone hitting my child I am not going to stop to ask questions or find out the circumstances. They can explain later from their hospital bed.

How very uncharacteristically violent of you

 

[Syndyre]

This is an important question. Physical punishment was for most of our history the first and last resort. Discipline was equated with hitting the child. Almost every person in favour does equate the two. From what I have seen when society decided to stop using beatings as a form of discipline they simply decided to have no discpline at all. Hitting was easy and gives the appearance of being highly effective, so no further thought was required.

While I'm not sure whether or not its the government's place to legislate against this, personally it wouldn't be my choice to use as a form of discipline but I'm not sure if its right to take away other people's choice.

At the risk of being idealistic it just seems like it doesn't say much about us as a society if the only way we can effectively discipline kids is violence, even if it is a controlled form of violence. I don't think its a simple choice between corporal punishment/spanking and anarchy as some like to portray it, but I also don't think its necessarily the sort of thing the government needs to micromanage.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

Touchy subject, I wouldn't comment until I have a kid

 

[noxibox]

I don't like government interference. They invariably go too far and laws are almost always lacking the subtly necessary for the real world.

I read a comment by, I think, a British MP saying that 50 children are killed at the hands of their parents each year in the UK. I'll have to go look it up to verify. How does that number compare to, for example, the number children who have murdered other children, allegedly due to wishy-washy modern liberal thinking?

How often in South Africa does what is supposed to be discipline spiral out of control and result in the death of the child?

 

[Alan]

How often in South Africa does what is supposed to be discipline spiral out of control and result in the death of the child?

Or lack of discipline result in the death of child?

 

[Jase]

Discipline can be dealt out in many forms. From a reprimand through to a hiding, but there is a line, a pretty broad one in my opinion, between discipline and abuse.

If you are no longer able to discipline you child with a smack, it does not mean you should start beating them.

 

[Freshy-ZN]

I think in such circumstances sitting would be the least of your worries. Nobody hits my children. Anyone who did would be treated like any common assailant. If I catch someone hitting my child I am not going to stop to ask questions or find out the circumstances. They can explain later from their hospital bed.

So, hyperthetically, I catch your child spraying graffiti on my garden wall that I have just painted and warm his backside for him. You then maintain your 'nobody touches my kids' attitude and beat me up or lay a charge of assualt or whatever? Is that what you are saying?

I use this example as it is a real life one. Except is happened to a friend who didnt catch the little misfit redhanded but managed to trace him via the art teacher at the local high school who recognised his 'work' When the parent was confronted his reaction was something like: "shame , hes artistic and highly strung." (Im seeing a pattern here...)

Needless to say the parent didnt appreciate the display of artwork on his garage door from a can of paint brought along just for that purpose.

 

[PeterCH]

Singapore. Now there is a society to admire, sure they don't have full democracy and freedom of speech but remember that case of that Australian or American teenage hooligan who vandalised cars years ago?

He got his butt caned and then they deported him. No amount of begging and pleading from various liberal western diplomats changed his fate.

 

[PeterCH]

I use this example as it is a real life one. Except is happened to a friend who didnt catch the little misfit redhanded but managed to trace him via the art teacher at the local high school who recognised his 'work' When the parent was confronted his reaction was something like: "shame , hes artistic and highly strung." (Im seeing a pattern here...)

Needless to say the parent didnt appreciate the display of artwork on his garage door from a can of paint brought along just for that purpose.

Sue them. They will also have to pay lawyers fees... oh yes, this isn't the land of the free.... paint a painting on his door I guess.

 

[PeterCH]

I don't like government interference. They invariably go too far and laws are almost always lacking the subtly necessary for the real world.

I read a comment by, I think, a British MP saying that 50 children are killed at the hands of their parents each year in the UK. I'll have to go look it up to verify. How does that number compare to, for example, the number children who have murdered other children, allegedly due to wishy-washy modern liberal thinking?

How often in South Africa does what is supposed to be discipline spiral out of control and result in the death of the child?

And criminalising physical punishment will NOT reduce this number. The sick, sadistic, alcoholic parents who do this to their children are too sociopathic
to worry about some laws. There are already laws against child abuse yet
kids still get abused all the time - mostly by their parents and close relatives.
Stricter and MORE-SPECIFIC laws are what's necessary not broad vague laws about degrading punishment. What's one person's 'degrading' is another person's job. Is it degrading to tell an obstinate beggar to F-CK OFF?
I don't think so. Is it degrading to slap a kid's behind when he's been
naught and he knows it? What's most degrading is the BS that the semi-comatose MPS in parliament come up with.

 

[Syndyre]

Firstly just because a parent feels he has the right to smack his child doesn't mean he is going to klap the kid all the time for trivial things or smack him black and blue.

True, never said that anyway.

Secondly society is a rough place. People are going to have to accept that there is no "liberal utopia". That is a completely unattainable goal.

Thirdly your kid is not a perfect harmless angel. That's not entirely societies fault so even if it was a "utopia" (which is impossible) your kid will misbehave because it's human nature. Unfortunately they are going to push the envelope and there will be occasions when a smack or the fear of one is the only thing that is going to keep them in check.

Most kids know full well they won't get a smack and have no reason not to misbehave. You might think you’ve turned them into ideal, peaceful, well behaved products of your ideology but alas you're in for a big surprise

I agree that kids, don't have any myself, aren't angels and will try and push boundaries etc, I wasn't advocating anarchy anyway, I just don't think smacking/spanking or whatever you want to call it is the only disciplinary option, which is the point you continually make.

 

[noxibox]

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/spare_the_rod.htm

Guidelines for Disciplinary Spanking

The following are guidelines that Dr. Den Trumbull has used to advise the parents he serves in disciplining children. These guidelines should help policymakers appreciate the legitimacy of disciplinary spanking.

1. Spanking should be used selectively for clear, deliberate misbehavior, particularly that which arises from a child's persistent defiance of a parent's instruction. It should be used only when the child receives at least as much encouragement and praise for good behavior as correction for problem behavior.

2. Milder forms of discipline, such as verbal correction, time-out, and logical consequences, should be used initially, followed by spanking when noncompliance persists. Spanking has shown to be an effective method of enforcing time-out with the child who refuses to comply.

3. Only a parent (or in exceptional situations, someone else who has an intimate relationship of authority with the child) should administer a spanking.

4. Spanking should not be administered on impulse or when a parent is out of control. A spanking should always be motivated by love for the purpose of teaching and correcting, never for revenge.

5. Spanking is inappropriate before 15 months of age and is usually not necessary until after 18 months. It should be less necessary after 6 years, and rarely, if ever, used after 10 years of age.

6. After 10 months of age, one slap to the hand of a stubborn crawler or toddler may be necessary to stop serious misbehavior when distraction and removal have failed. This is particularly the case when the forbidden object is immovable and dangerous, such as a hot oven door or an electrical outlet.

7. Spanking should always be a planned action, not a reaction, by the parent and should follow a deliberate procedure.

• The child should be forewarned of the spanking consequence for designated problem behaviors.
• Spanking should always be administered in private (bedroom or restroom) to avoid public humiliation or embarassment.
• One or two spanks should be administered to the buttocks. This is followed by embracing the child and calmly reviewing the offense and the desired behavior in an effort to reestablish a warm relationship.

8. Spanking should leave only transient redness of the skin and should never cause physical injury.

9. If properly administered spankings are ineffective, other appropriate disciplinary responses should be tried, or the parent should seek professional help. Parents should never increase the intensity of spankings.

Perhaps the government should impose these guidelines. No. 8 is where I think UK law currently stands.