Offer to purchase question

[Lupus]

A bit OT.

I recently sold a property to a couple through an agent.
The day I went to sign at the attorneys and hand over the title deed, the couple had a massive domestic dispute or whatever you wanna call it. By this time they already signed everything.

Now the wife wanted out of the deal. I said no. AFAIK they can no longer walk away from this. And the deal must go on.
Just another one lifes hurdles thrown at me.

Anyway. Next thing I check my place that I sold is being marketed for rent. I call up the agent and tune wtf?
So it turns out the buying couple must proceed with the deal but they will not occupy the place. So the agent got a tenant, who signed a 12 month rental agreement, with terms that they will pay in full up front. I'm like wtaf is going here.

So tenant will rent the place, I get paid the monthly rent till registration at the deeds office takes place. Then rent will go to the buying couple. And I walk away from this evnetually. And the buyers can then sell the property again. As they are gatvol of each others kak.

Then it turns out the tenant was supposed to move in end of July, they only paid dribs and drabs. I don't even know wtf is going on.
Somewhere inbetween all of this I get a snag list from the agent's assistant on kak I need to fix in the house. GTFO!!!

I mean, I fixed up the place. I put it in the market, found a buyer and I sold the fscking place, as is. Now there are issues that need attention before the tenant moves in. WTF. One of the things was that the LPG cylinder was half full. AND? WTF about it I asked? I know it was half full, I put it there ffs. The tenant or the buyers can sort it out. That's like complaining the prepaid meter only has 5 units on when you move in. WTAF?

So I just said to them sort out the place. Let the fsckers move in. And get this BS over with.

Even if they were in the place and paying you occupational rent until the transfer, you'd still be liable for the usual landlord responsibilities.
Though not gas obviously

 

[The Darkness]

Exactly this.

The conveyancing attorney has an obligation to tell you as the buyer that he is not acting on your behalf and can't give you any legal advice.

The estate agent can't give you legal advice as they don't have the specialised knowledge to assist you, they are marketers as in any other business.

You will have to get your own attorney to help you.

Agreed. I have first hand experience of this - bought a property that had some latent defects. Agent was a snake in the grass, two-faced and acted on both sides. CA stonewalled me. Got my own lawyer involved and things changed quickly.

 

[Tongs of Destiny]

Sadly the estate agents not being helpful at all.

I sent her all our details yesterday morning 10am and conditions we have and by 10am this morning i have not heard a thing. What is the normal time frame, if any, from time of telling estate agent your offer and conditions, to receiving the OTP papers to sign, if any?

So far, she says no seller is going to agree to my amount of conditions and i spoke to someone from this thread as well and he said they were pretty standard requests.

I requested that there is up to date plans on the property and this is the sort of reply you get from the estate agent regarding that clause "I will advise shortly on the house plans and the deadline you wish to include on this, as I don't think the seller wants to accept an offer like this, if she does not have plans."

My guess at this stage, probably going to fall through.

When you sign an OTP which is to be presented to the seller there is a timeframe on the offer. The agent will always want to make it ridiculously long... just cross it out and put 48 hours, that is more than enough time for a seller to decide if they want to sell their house at X price.

If the agent says, "no one will agree to those terms xyz" just say "excuse me that is not up to you" if they continue to give you lip just go into their office and speak to the dealer principal, get him/her removed from the sale.

If the agent comes back and says no your offer was rejected, you must ask for confirmation of this in writing, whether it be a screenshot of the whatsapp message or phone call / email etc. They are scum.... period.... anyone can try prove me wrong

 

[Ghost1293]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

 

[The Darkness]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

Par for the course with estate agents. These are the same people who sell used cars. With that in mind, I wouldnt expect them to handle your complaint with integrity either.

 

[Neuk_]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

Ask for feedback after the first offers bank does an inspection and asks for the latest house plans, then post that feedback here...

 

[Tomtomtom]

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

No offence but it sounds like the agent isn't the problem here. Why is it their fault that the seller doesn't want to deal with your drama when they have an offer already on the table at a higher value and with no conditions? Good for them.

Where are you buying btw? Anywhere near Cape Town you can forget attaching conditions like "up-to-date plans". There are areas where you might have to bid up the asking price and you will barely get a chance to view it. You will certainly have no hope of making the seller do any legwork at all. Why should they? Except in very rare cases the seller doesn't care how conscientious you are.

Bottom line is your problem is sometimes your competition, i.e. the other buyers, and not the seller or the agent.

 

[Neuk_]

No offence but it sounds like the agent isn't the problem here. Why is it their fault that the seller doesn't want to deal with your drama when they have an offer already on the table at a higher value and with no conditions? Good for them.

Where are you buying btw? Anywhere near Cape Town you can forget attaching conditions like "up-to-date plans". There are areas where you might have to bid up the asking price and you will barely get a chance to view it. You will certainly have no hope of making the seller do any legwork at all. Why should they? Except in very rare cases the seller doesn't care how conscientious you are.

Bottom line is your problem is sometimes your competition, i.e. the other buyers, and not the seller or the agent.

Conditions like 'up to date' plans are far from unreasonable and more and more banks are enforcing this together with physical conditions before approving bonds. Common sense in my view but I guess common sense isn't so common...

 

[Tomtomtom]

Conditions like 'up to date' plans are far from unreasonable and more and more banks are enforcing this together with physical conditions before approving bonds. Common sense in my view but I guess common sense isn't so common...

In the high-value high-demand areas common sense says you don't try to ask the current owner to do the admin to get the 1930s plans updated to account for the 1970s granny flat. It might not be unreasonable but it's definitely unrealistic.

OTOH if building value is 80% of the total price and you can see a recent extension that the neighbours probably aren't happy about, then yes maybe you do want plans... or just to walk away.

 

[Sepeng]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

Isn't knowing upfront better, before going through the hassle of signing all those OTP pages?
That was always my bug bear - place is on sale for R1m, maybe me as a buyer look at it and say I'm willing to offer R950k and the seller has no intention of accepting that - I'd much rather the agent act as as that go-between, has a sense of what's doable, and then once they feel like there's a reasonable chance of the offer being entertained start the formal process.
Not to say any of their other service hasn't been bad, and sure if you want they are obligated to submit all offers. But if there's no chance it's accepted?

I agree, it's a scary process though - one of the biggest financial commitments you're going to make. So only do what's comfortable for you and always be prepared to walk away.

 

[Neuk_]

In the high-value high-demand areas common sense says you don't try to ask the current owner to do the admin to get the 1930s plans updated to account for the 1970s granny flat. It might not be unreasonable but it's definitely unrealistic.

OTOH if building value is 80% of the total price and you can see a recent extension that the neighbours probably aren't happy about, then yes maybe you do want plans... or just to walk away.

If the current owners aren't willing to provide the latest approve plans, I would walk away, the consequences should the municipality find out there are unapproved renovations, buildings, extensions, etc. could bankrupt you. When we bought our house in Parkhurst in 2017 and then went through the approval process with PHRA-G and CoJ before renovating, there were 33 properties in the suburb under investigation for unapproved changes with potential fines of R500k and up in addition to potentially having to restore the property to it's original state. Compare that to getting plans drawn up and approved being around R30k in addition to most banks requiring current, approved plans before approving a home loan and the need for them only increases...

Sure, we live in Africa and most people do what they want, official law and African law are very rarely in alignment.

 

[Tomtomtom]

there were 33 properties in the suburb under investigation for unapproved changes with potential fines of R500k

That racket doesn't exist in CoCT as far as I'm aware. Fines are on the order of 1/1000th of that. Worst case is demolition and I don't think it's common.

But maybe it's also because a tiny risk of having to pull down a garden shed or a granny flat in Newlands just doesn't faze buyers because the entire house is only 20% of the land value anyway.

 

[Neuk_]

That racket doesn't exist in CoCT as far as I'm aware. Fines are on the order of 1/1000th of that. Worst case is demolition and I don't think it's common.

But maybe it's also because a tiny risk of having to pull down a garden shed or a granny flat in Newlands just doesn't faze buyers because the entire house is only 20% of the land value anyway.

Might be because most of Parkhurst and similar suburbs were built in the 40's so all buildings are considered heritage sites and require not only municipal approval but PHRA-G approval. We weren't willing to take the risk, even with our current house, a condition of sale was the previous owner getting the building plans up to date and approved.

 

[Ghost1293]

Isn't knowing upfront better, before going through the hassle of signing all those OTP pages?
That was always my bug bear - place is on sale for R1m, maybe me as a buyer look at it and say I'm willing to offer R950k and the seller has no intention of accepting that - I'd much rather the agent act as as that go-between, has a sense of what's doable, and then once they feel like there's a reasonable chance of the offer being entertained start the formal process.
Not to say any of their other service hasn't been bad, and sure if you want they are obligated to submit all offers. But if there's no chance it's accepted?

I agree, it's a scary process though - one of the biggest financial commitments you're going to make. So only do what's comfortable for you and always be prepared to walk away.

Never got a chance to sign any documents, as the estate agent clearly went verbally to the owner only and discussed my conditions with them verbally. This one was clearly not feeling like doing the work. I asked her a few other questions she never even bothered getting back to me on.

Guess i feel glad i don't live in CT then, Jhb based.

 

[Ghost1293]

No offence but it sounds like the agent isn't the problem here. Why is it their fault that the seller doesn't want to deal with your drama when they have an offer already on the table at a higher value and with no conditions? Good for them.

Where are you buying btw? Anywhere near Cape Town you can forget attaching conditions like "up-to-date plans". There are areas where you might have to bid up the asking price and you will barely get a chance to view it. You will certainly have no hope of making the seller do any legwork at all. Why should they? Except in very rare cases the seller doesn't care how conscientious you are.

Bottom line is your problem is sometimes your competition, i.e. the other buyers, and not the seller or the agent.

I was just told there was another OTP, was never sure of what the offer was.

I would rather miss the place than get caught with my pants down when the bank/municipality request the plans and there's been changes made over the years that aren't on the plans and i have to fork out to either take them down or get the plans updated.

I totally understand this, but the in our situation, i didn't feel the estate agent was giving us any or enough feedback. Surely OTP should've been signed and sent to the owner? no paperwork was ever sent to us to sign etc.

and no, not CT based at least.

 

[The Darkness]

I was just told there was another OTP, was never sure of what the offer was.

I would rather miss the place than get caught with my pants down when the bank/municipality request the plans and there's been changes made over the years that aren't on the plans and i have to fork out to either take them down or get the plans updated.

I totally understand this, but the in our situation, i didn't feel the estate agent was giving us any or enough feedback. Surely OTP should've been signed and sent to the owner? no paperwork was ever sent to us to sign etc.

and no, not CT based at least.

Look, he's right about CT - my current house was sold on the day of posting, 5 buyers, zero time to vet plans or do 'inspections'. I offered above asking but made sure the provisions in the OTP covered my needs, which paid off down the line. I dont think I'd have had the confidence though had I not been burned several times before on other properties.
Your gut is your best tool, and when you see 'the one' you'll know it. But CT you can't dilly dally, you have to be ready to move fast.

 

[bokka1]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

Why would a Seller negotiate with you without an offer in writing? How is this anyone else's fault except your own?

 

[Toxxyc]

The whole house inside and outside has been repainted recently.

Make sure there are no latent defects in the foundation or soil before you sign ANYTHING.

I was at a place where people bought a "newly painted house in perfect condition" and a few years later it cracked so much the doors wouldn't close anymore. They eventually had to sell at like R300k less than they paid because of the damage to the structure, and the cheapest quote to fix was R300k (jacking up the corners, etc.).

 

[Aeryn23]

So, got that dreadful message this morning that the the seller read my message i sent to the estate agent regarding my conditions and this is basically her reply.

"She does not have house plans for the house, she says she never has. Based on the condition you wanted to put around this into your offer, I understand that this is a deal breaker for you.

She has also reviewed the first offer that she received, and would like to proceed with it. It is for a higher amount, with no special conditions, and they are pre-approved for their bond, so she would like to accept it and will do so today."

We never even signed any official OTP, everything was just on whatsapp and the estate agent never even sent us the OTP pages, so we know what the owners conditions were or what defects there were on the house.

Will definitely be leaving a review on their google website and then Facebook page, as we received such bad assistance here.

You dodged a bullet. Always ask for approved plans and specify it in the OTP. Sometimes that isn't even enough. I would go as far as specifying that transfer cannot happen until you get approved plans. Check for anything that looks like it may be an issue for building plan approval, like the house or garages or any outbuildings built close to the boundary line, a granny flat on the property or any obvious extensions. Also check the title deed and surveyor general diagram for any servitudes. In my case, it took 4 years to get the approved plans, despite putting it in the OTP as a condition. Council claimed that there was a municipal pipe running down the side of the property and the side of the house was built within the servitude space of the pipe. After much back and forth and years inbetween, we were eventually able to prove that the pipe was actually on the neighbours side of the boundary wall and not on our property. Councils diagram showing the municipal pipe was incorrect. However if this wasn't the case, we would have to deal with fines or even move the entire side of the house inwards to allow for the servitude space - an extremely expensive exercise. It's 100% not worth the risk!

 

[DrJohnZoidberg]

You dodged a bullet. Always ask for approved plans and specify it in the OTP. Sometimes that isn't even enough. I would go as far as specifying that transfer cannot happen until you get approved plans. Check for anything that looks like it may be an issue for building plan approval, like the house or garages or any outbuildings built close to the boundary line, a granny flat on the property or any obvious extensions. Also check the title deed and surveyor general diagram for any servitudes. In my case, it took 4 years to get the approved plans, despite putting it in the OTP as a condition. Council claimed that there was a municipal pipe running down the side of the property and the side of the house was built within the servitude space of the pipe. After much back and forth and years inbetween, we were eventually able to prove that the pipe was actually on the neighbours side of the boundary wall and not on our property. Councils diagram showing the municipal pipe was incorrect. However if this wasn't the case, we would have to deal with fines or even move the entire side of the house inwards to allow for the servitude space - an extremely expensive exercise. It's 100% not worth the risk!

When I bought my house the bank required the approved plans before they would release the funds to the seller.

Found out 2 years later that the approved plans had a glaring error on them where the one side of the house was out by 500mm, likely done way back to get around minimum boundary regulations. Thankfully doing a renovation now and we submitted the correct plans which we didn't have issue with.

Moral of the story, check that your approved plans match the actual property