Official 10.7 Lion Thread...

[macboer]

It's as good as the cheque is in the mail.

 

[rhowes]

I like the idea of getting away from explicitly saving a file. Archaic.

 

[fwwwn]

Five years of delicate mousing and I haven't had this problem. Maybe it's something to do with those high-frequency mice you use?

In five years you have never noticed mouse jitter or acceleration issues in OS X? Wow. Even the Apple mice suffer from some slight jitter (mostly unnoticeable to the average user, but it's there, and should be noticed by any power user). I have pretty much disabled acceleration to the point where I can't notice or measure it, using the Razer drivers. But it's still retarded that this is a hack, not a system feature. Microsoft isn't innocent though, to fully disable Windows mouse acceleration also requires a reg hack.

As for "high-frequency mice". What? Don't understand what you're saying here. It's wrong to use 3rd party peripherals and expect them to work? And don't tell me it's not Apples fault if a 3rd party mouse jitters, even with the best efforts of 3rd party developers, they can't fix fundamental OS X mouse flaws completely.

Hardly. But it's clearly a subjective preference thing, based on expectations cultivated on another OS.

Oh, I'm sorry I couldn't afford to grow up using only Apple operating systems. But hey, now that I have a Mac, I'd like it to function in a certain way. Oh wait, I don't have any pointer behaviour options? My curser jitters? I can't assign the back and forward buttons without installing drivers? My bad. I'm not bitching at you, koffie, but that is such a dumb way of looking at this. More end user customisation = better.

Ja, I fail to see anything. My mouse has never given me over or under shoot issues. Must be a switcher thing. It mentions that OS 9 never had this "problem" in that link. Then, I should have noticed something when I moved from 9 to X and I can honestly not recall any such thing.

See above re: "switching".

I realise bitching here has no effect on the fixing of these bugs, but this attitude of "oh I don't notice it so it must not be a problem" that I see all over the internet regarding these bugs just rashes my balls. Directly compare 2 high end mice on Mac OS X and Windows, and tell me you don't notice the problems.

 

[ponder]

I realise bitching here has no effect on the fixing of these bugs, but this attitude of "oh I don't notice it so it must not be a problem" that I see all over the internet regarding these bugs just rashes my balls. Directly compare 2 high end mice on Mac OS X and Windows, and tell me you don't notice the problems.

Some people just refuse to accept any form of criticism and see it as an attack on something they hold dear and infallible. It's like a religion, nothing you can do about it.

 

[fwwwn]

Some people just refuse to accept any form of criticism and see it as an attack on something they hold dear and infallible. It's like a religion, nothing you can do about it.

Haha. I am quite a bit of a Mac zealot myself. I f..king hate using Windows computers. But at least Microsoft got their mouse input right. And their 3rd party hardware support, most of the time anyway.

 

[Synaesthesia]

Well I must say, I agree. However with the Apple Trackpads, they're way ahead of the rest. The Magic Trackpad is just great.

 

[fwwwn]

Well I must say, I agree. However with the Apple Trackpads, they're way ahead of the rest. The Magic Trackpad is just great.

Oh, definitely. Apple's trackpads are probably the best reason to switch to a Mac. Using any other (i.e. Windows based) laptop is a nightmare. I keep wanting to use 2 finger clicks or 2 finger scroll on other people's notebooks (and, even if they support multitouch, it's nowhere near as smooth). Looks like Lion is going to make even better use of the multitouch trackpads.

Can't do much photoshopping / illustrator work with a trackpad though...

 

[Synaesthesia]

I would. They're precise enough for me, although a mouse is faster. The multitouch zoom in Photoshop is cool.

 

[bwana]

Can't do much photoshopping / illustrator work with a trackpad though...

Why can't you? Personally, I hate doing it any other way.

 

[koffiejunkie]

In five years you have never noticed mouse jitter or acceleration issues in OS X?

Jitter? I don't believe I have. I just tried three different mice to (basic MS Optical USB, MS Wireless 4000 and Apple Magic Mouse). No matter how fast or slow or smoothly or erratic I move it around, I don't get any jitter. I'm not saying, and I've never said, that no one has jitter problems.

Acceleration "issues"? I maintain that the acceleration curve is a matter of preference. I find it perfectly usable.

As for "high-frequency mice". What? Don't understand what you're saying here.

Sorry, my choice of words was a bit vague. I was refering to your comments:

There is, however, a problem with mice that use a high-polling rate, or anything higher than 125hz anyway. This sums it up perfectly: http://dae.cyberic.eu/blog/mouse-cursor-skipping-jumping-bug-on-mac-os-x/
Even with my mouse set to 125hz, I still notice the cursor jitter.

It's wrong to use 3rd party peripherals and expect them to work?

Again, I never said anything to this effect. I use a Microsoft mouse, despite owning an Apple Magic mouse.

And don't tell me it's not Apples fault if a 3rd party mouse jitters, even with the best efforts of 3rd party developers, they can't fix fundamental OS X mouse flaws completely.

No but they're not beholden to Apple's mouse driver. Just like on Windows they can write a driver for their specific hardware if they feel the generic one provided by the operating system is inadequate.

Oh, I'm sorry I couldn't afford to grow up using only Apple operating systems.

You really make too many assumptions. I only got to use a Mac for the first time with OS X 10.4 (Tiger). And the last laptop I bought, is an ASUS running Windows 7. For what it's worth, I grew up *without* any computer. So cool it, OK?

I realise bitching here has no effect on the fixing of these bugs, but this attitude of "oh I don't notice it so it must not be a problem" that I see all over the internet regarding these bugs just rashes my balls.

Again, this is not what I said. So let me be clear:

1. I fully accept that there could be problems with jitter and other features such as high polling rates.

2. I fully accept that OS X does not support all 14 buttons on your 3rd party mouse out of the box. But I'll add that, the last time I had a mouse with more than three buttons, Windows didn't support it out of the box either - I had to install a driver supplied by the manufacturer to turn on the other buttons. Same as the media buttons on my ASUS. Windows doesn't recognise them, and since I loaded Windows 7 64bit instead of the 32bit that it came with, and ASUS doesn't have 64bit drivers, those buttons just don't work.

3. I consider the acceleration curve to be a matter of preference. I accept that you don't like it, and I accept that it would be nice if it was configurable. But I would also point out that it's not configurable in Windows Either. I just checked Windows 7 - you still only have a "pointer speed" slider. This, as far as I cant tell, is no different from the "tracking speed" slider in OS X. So as far as I can see, you're no better off in Windows if you don't like the built-in acceleration curve than you are in OS X.

 

[GreGorGy]

Some people just refuse to accept any form of criticism and see it as an attack on something they hold dear and infallible. It's like a religion, nothing you can do about it.

Slow down ponder. At no point am I an evangelist. I find many faults with apple, starting with core. I merely don't understand the problem that you guys are whining about. Hell, I may have a problem and not know I have it because I have "never known better". Is there a video of this issue on YouTube? lemme go look...

 

[macboer]

Seems like Lion is going to be the most feature rich update in a long time if not EVER.

http://gigaom.com/apple/mac-os-x-lion-includes-many-small-but-significant-changes/

• Resize Windows From Anywhere
• Local Snapshots in Time Machine
• Migration Assistant Supports Windows PCs
• Finder View Settings No Longer Global
• Spotlight’s Bigger and has Previews
• Easy Access to Accented Letters

 

[bwana]

Some people just refuse to accept any form of criticism and see it as an attack on something they hold dear and infallible. It's like a religion, nothing you can do about it.

It's kind of ridiculous to expect people to be happy with criticism of a problem that they're not experiencing. You'd think that out of the millions of copies of OsX sold over the years there would be a bigger outcry if everyone had a problem with the mouse acceleration.

Oh, I'm sorry I couldn't afford to grow up using only Apple operating systems. But hey, now that I have a Mac, I'd like it to function in a certain way. Oh wait, I don't have any pointer behaviour options? My curser jitters? I can't assign the back and forward buttons without installing drivers? My bad. I'm not bitching at you, koffie, but that is such a dumb way of looking at this. More end user customisation = better.

What's wrong with installing drivers? Who better to ensure that a peripheral works as designed than the people who designed it?

 

[ponder]

Slow down ponder. At no point am I an evangelist. I find many faults with apple, starting with core. I merely don't understand the problem that you guys are whining about. Hell, I may have a problem and not know I have it because I have "never known better". Is there a video of this issue on YouTube? lemme go look...

My post was not purely directed at you.

I doubt a video will be able to demonstrate the problem.

 

[ponder]

It's kind of ridiculous to expect people to be happy with criticism of a problem that they're not experiencing. You'd think that out of the millions of copies of OsX sold over the years there would be a bigger outcry if everyone had a problem with the mouse acceleration.

What's wrong with installing drivers? Who better to ensure that a peripheral works as designed than the people who designed it?

I'm not asking you to be happy about it. Maybe just accept that others are not having the same experience you are having. It's an issue that could be easily rectified if users were given more options in preferences. This one size fits all and because it works fine for me then it must be good for you mindset does not solve the issue. But I can see my comments are falling on deaf ears.

Very few mouse brands come with drivers and the problem does not lie with the mouse but the OS. Don't recall the last time I installed mouse drivers in an OS. On windows & linux my 6-button mouse runs without any issues, no need for drivers which it does not even have in the first place.

 

[fwwwn]

Again, this is not what I said. So let me be clear:

1. I fully accept that there could be problems with jitter and other features such as high polling rates.

2. I fully accept that OS X does not support all 14 buttons on your 3rd party mouse out of the box. But I'll add that, the last time I had a mouse with more than three buttons, Windows didn't support it out of the box either - I had to install a driver supplied by the manufacturer to turn on the other buttons. Same as the media buttons on my ASUS. Windows doesn't recognise them, and since I loaded Windows 7 64bit instead of the 32bit that it came with, and ASUS doesn't have 64bit drivers, those buttons just don't work.

3. I consider the acceleration curve to be a matter of preference. I accept that you don't like it, and I accept that it would be nice if it was configurable. But I would also point out that it's not configurable in Windows Either. I just checked Windows 7 - you still only have a "pointer speed" slider. This, as far as I cant tell, is no different from the "tracking speed" slider in OS X. So as far as I can see, you're no better off in Windows if you don't like the built-in acceleration curve than you are in OS X.

Apologies for my assumptions. Years and years of dealing with this problem with no clear solution has made me a bit crabby. In Windows, if you disable "enhance pointer precision" it disables acceleration. And out of the box, most HID compliant mice should work flawlessly with the built in drivers. Drivers are obviously necessary for some non-HID features like CPI adjustment or mode buttons, etc.

Slow down ponder. At no point am I an evangelist. I find many faults with apple, starting with core. I merely don't understand the problem that you guys are whining about. Hell, I may have a problem and not know I have it because I have "never known better". Is there a video of this issue on YouTube? lemme go look...

Video of the slow mouse movement jitter here: http://dae.cyberic.eu/blog/mouse-cursor-skipping-jumping-bug-on-mac-os-x/

It's kind of ridiculous to expect people to be happy with criticism of a problem that they're not experiencing. You'd think that out of the millions of copies of OsX sold over the years there would be a bigger outcry if everyone had a problem with the mouse acceleration. What's wrong with installing drivers? Who better to ensure that a peripheral works as designed than the people who designed it?

Fair enough. If you don't notice it, it shouldn't bother you. Trackpad users will never notice it, and people with an Apple mouse will rarely notice it. For the rest of us, it's frustrating as hell. The acceleration curve and polling rate seems to be programmed only for Apple hardware.

Every single 3rd party hardware vendor has struggled with offering users the option to disable acceleration. Logtitech drivers, Microsoft drivers, Razer drivers, USB Overdrive, Controllermate, Steermouse - all use hacks. They don't seem to have access to the raw mouse data.

And the driver developers can't fix the fact that OS X doesn't expect mice to poll at 1000hz. The only workaround they have is to offer us the option to turn polling down to 125hz. That's 8 times less responsive. 1ms vs 8ms. Which is fine for browsing, but undermines the progress of technology anyway.

Hope this post doesn't seem bitchy. Just wanted to inform. Anyway, this topic has been discussed to death, and is a bit OT. Back to more Lion news.

 

[jasweb]

Migration Assistant Supports Windows PCs

Wonder what that is all about (and how it will work)... Need to google that one I guess (as I am planning on becoming "mac-ed")

 

[macboer]

Migration Assistant Supports Windows PCs

Wonder what that is all about (and how it will work)... Need to google that one I guess (as I am planning on becoming "mac-ed")

"mac-ed" lol, nice one.

 

[koffiejunkie]

Migration Assistant Supports Windows PCs

Wonder what that is all about (and how it will work)...

I'm wondering too. Mum's getting a Mac for her b-day. Maybe not this year, maybe not next year, but some time in the possibly distant future She has a Windows XP install that's going on seven years now...

 

[Synaesthesia]

Depends how open-minded they are. I find it hard to move some folks off Windows. Heck I'm installing Windows 7 on an iMac for my mom. Coz she knows it.